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Featured Where Do You Put Your Faith?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Well it's been a century now, man has been beaten by the flu virus, and that's just one virus.
    And they are going to conquer death in less than a quarter of a century? Hmm. Sounds to me like dreamers.
    Lol. Me neither. Magic can't be attributed to a creator of the universe. Do you see any evidence at all of a mighty unseen personage? None at all?

    What would it require to convince you that there is a powerful source of energy that used his almighty power to create the majestic universe?
     
  2. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I don't even know that it would ultimately be a good thing to conquer death. There are possible down sides.

    What we have accomplished so far is not a measure of what we may accomplish in the future.
     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I know man can accomplish almost anything, right, but I also know why they won't.
    When we look around us the answer is clear, at least to some of us. Why does man have so much knowledge yet the world gets worst and worst - "Natural" disasters, Terrorism, Crime - you name it, diseases and poverty. Doesn't it seem odd to you?

    ...and what are they looking to do? Run away to another planet. :laughing:
     
  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the world is actually getting worse overall. The life expectancy used to be half or less of what it is now. We have conquered many of the diseases. A larger percentage of the population has access to clean water and food than at anytime in the past. This not to say there are not numerous and difficult problems to solve. There are still large pockets of poverty and disease that need to be dealt with. Is it possible to solve these problems? Yes, I think so. Will we ever actually do so? I don't know. I have that hope. But the solutions are a long way off, given human nature.
     
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  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I like that last bit. That's actually my point - but whereas you might put it down to mere human nature, I believe it is more. But you'd have to not be an atheist to take my side.:D
     
  6. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't clearly know what your beliefs are, but would be happy to entertain any other influences for which you can provide sufficient evidence.
     
  7. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Nope. "Magic", by any common meaning of the word, is the only thing you have to "explain" how gods work, isn't it? So you're being disingenuous when you claim you don't believe in magic.

    But you do believe in gods? Who are, basically, magical super-beings?

    Evidence. And sadly? If your magic being exists, and is as "wise" as advertised?

    It already knows this-- but seems to absolutely refuse to provide any. Why?
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    What's your understanding of the term magic?
     
  9. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Anything that breaks the established laws and theories of physics.

    Such as *poof*ing things outta nothing (Genesis 1:1), or magically animating living beings from dirt, or cloning a female from a male rib.

    Or? Flaming shrubbery. Talking snakes. Water that separates with no discernible method-- no glass or stone barriers-- just water seemingly repelled from itself.

    More magic: Making the sun stop moving in the sky--- in reality, of course, the sun isn't moving, the earth is rotating, but the bible authors were ignorant savages, and had no clue... but in either case? Magic.

    More: magically transforming 50 trumpets into giant wall-smashing Comic Book Effects.

    More: turning the Nile river into literal blood (that's what the bible states)

    More magic: enraging two female bears to murder a group of young boys who's only "sin" was to make fun of a cranky old bald guy. How's THAT for biblical "justice"?

    More magic: using what we must assume is Alchemy, atomic transformation of a human body, which is 90% H2O, into a statue made up of 100% NaCl. All without destroying anyone nearby from entropic release of excess energy...

    More magic: atomic transformation of H2O into a mixture of H2O and C2H6O.... where the extra carbon came from is anybody's guess. More Magic?

    More magic: A human, who's density is just short of 1 (water), is magically changed so that it's less than one tenth of that, so he may walk on water like a water-bug.

    More magic: Weather control.

    More magic: Re-animated dead bodies into what we can only assume is a zombie. Alas, the bible does not say.

    Shall I go on? The MAGIC written into the Revelations of John is even more .... breath-taking.
     
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  10. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Okay then. So magic cannot be attributed to the supernatural.
     
  11. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    As Yoda would have said, "Good question, that is".
    Obviously, not prestidigitation. To me it is doing something that defies the natural laws of the universe.
     
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  12. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    What would you attribute such things to?
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Magic is done by persons who performs extraordinary feats, by means of the supernatural - provided it isn't just trickery.
    noun
    1. 1.
      the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
     
  14. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much what I said.............So if we are talking about a god, please define the god and explain what mechanisms your god uses to accomplish things.
     
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  15. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    LMAO! Dude! That's literally baked-in to all the most common definitions OF MAGIC! SUPERNATURAL!

    Oh. My. that's funny!
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Thanks for asking.
    My God - the God of the Bible - creator of the universe, and life within, is spirit. John 4:24

    What I understand about spirit, is that it is not material, physical, but a higher form of - if you will, for the sake of understanding - matter, but I prefer to say energy.

    Interestingly, that's the term given to invisible forces right. For example, you normally wouldn't hear people refer to electricity, magnetism, or other forces as matter. They refer to these as energy, and I believe rightly so.

    The forces of nature actually give us a hint of that - that's why puny man is no match. :)
    All this energy is not visible to us physical beings. So how could man reason, "Show us your God." Or, "We don't believe in what we cannot see." Ludicrous right?
    There is an invisible force - energy - in all things... which I think is noteworthy.

    Another thing I consider interesting, is that science says that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
    We also learned - according to science - energy is responsible for holding matter together.
    In fact, it is from energy that all matter came.

    That's why I think there is a big problem with a theory that suggests the universe always existed. They had to be a starting point for matter, or material things - a cause.

    So all of this tells me that just as we observe physical things, all manner of life - building things, then it's obvious to me, there are forms of life that are spirit that also build things - far greater.

    Hence, I believe a creator is responsible for the organization in the entire universe (Jeremiah 10:12), since laws govern the universe at every turn, and laws exist by means of a law giver.
    Isaiah 40:21-26

    So what are miracles to an all powerful spirit being with dynamic energy generating throughout his entire being?
    The greatest star pales in comparison... and no - he does not die out. My God is awesome.:)

    This brings me to your second question... what mechanisms does my God use to accomplish things?
    Good question.

    God uses what the Bible calls Holy spirit - referred to as the finger of God.
    Exodus 8:
    Matthew 12:
    Luke 11:
    This obviously is also energy or force, but actively controlled energy - directed in a controlled way. Hence, order.

    So I believe this force is active in everything, and God has the power to withdraw it if he wills.
    So take the force of gravity for example. What if gravity suddenly was removed? What if it never was?
    How did it get there in the first place?

    This is a question that baffles the mind of some scientists... I say some, because the Christian scientists - the ones who acknowledge God, and attributes the forces of nature - the laws that govern our universe - to him, are not baffle in the slightest. They are awed at the awesome power of God.

    So how does God use his spirit?
    In many ways.
    He used it
    ...to create - Genesis 1:2
    ...to influence thoughts - 2 Peter 1:21
    ...to strengthen - Isaiah 40:29-31
    ...to give understanding - Matthew 16:17;

    However, according to the Bible, there are countless spirit beings, and not all utilizes God's holy spirit. Hence there is a different spirit.
    Ephesians 2
    For persons who reject the creator of the universe, they can also reject his spirit, and be consumed by another spirit, which only feeds the fleshly thinking and desires, and hinders them from benefitting from the fruitage of God's spirit.
    Galatians 5
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    This is why I said what I did earlier. There is a reason why many will not understand the sayings of God.

    Even the little I said here isn't even 1% of what the Bible reveals that is so enlightening, and it may sound like complete and utter nonsense... to some.:)
     
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  17. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    So how does the Holy Spirit affect things in the universe? What is the mechanism?

    What is this energy or force? What field does it interact with? What particles are associated with this force? The electromagnetic force interacts through photons. The weak force interacts through the W and Z bosons. So how does the Holy Spirit work?
     
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  18. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    You would be incorrect-- by definition, magic is beyond the natural, which is also the very definition of supernatural.

    The two are one and the same: All gods require magic to even exist at all.
     
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  19. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    The very definition of Magic.
     
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  20. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Magic, and .... Magic. :)


    It's easy when you use ... Magic.

    It's like..... magic! ;)
     
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