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Featured Where do the orthodox Jews stand with homosexuality?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by slackercruster, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The things I don't know are not things you are aware of. Issues of "laws of God" are established but that's not what I'm talking about. My question is about whether if someone is known to break certain laws, that person is allowed to serve certain communal roles, but this applies to many different laws. I don't know because I don't think the situation has arisen so there hasn't been any particular answer issued. If you have been following the news within the Jewish community, you would know that, just this past week, some of those issues have come up elsewhere.
     
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since there are no Jewish people where I live, and I do not follow the news within the Jewish community, I have to rely on people like you to inform me. Are practicing homosexual people accepted to participate in Jewish worship?
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    That's a complex question. On one level, yes. On another level, maybe no but I'm not sure. The word "participate" is not so simple. "Can one be quoted for a quorum" is one form of participating but so is "can one LEAD the quorum".
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If Leviticus states that homosexual sex is an "abomination" to God then how are practicing homosexuals treated in the Jewish faith? Are they treated the same as everyone else.....are they tolerated.....or are they taught about God's laws concerning sexual morality? Is it condoned either deliberately or even tacitly? And if it is, then where is God's law and who enforces it?
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Jewish law is structured as much more complex than just a quick application of the text's surface meaning. The question of how anyone is treated is a separate set of laws. As to "who enforces it" that's a separate issue. As I have said -- way too much and too complex for a simple answer.
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    My goodness...is there a reason for all the confusion and complexity? Does God want his worship turned into something so difficult no one can comprehend how to do the simple things or to implement the law?

    How was it understood in the days when Moses wrote it? Surely this complexity is the work of men, not God?
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There is confusion and complexity for those who haven't studied it. God's wants his law understood and mastered after hard work. You want the law to be simple but life is complex so its law is as well. The complexity is built into God's system.
     
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  8. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    For someone who says they don't know much about Judaism, you sure do seem to feel quite qualified to give your expert opinion on what Jews believe or should believe.
     
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  9. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    I would first look at what's Important. Love your Neighbor would seem to overcome other verses-- especially when interpreting them as you do, is so hateful.

    Moreover? I'd **certainly** not read it as Evil, because we now know that homosexuality is as natural as the sky, and homosexuals are born, not made.

    Thus, if god has made them homosexuals in the first place? WHO ARE YOU TO DENY THEM BEING WHO THEY ARE?

    Bottom line: You claim your god is LOVE-- yet, you seem to go out of your way to find an excuse to HATE.

    Why?
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How complex was God's instructions to Adam and his wife? When I read Genesis, it looks very simple and unambiguous to me. If you intentionally break God's law, there is a penalty.

    In ancient Israel, after their release from Egypt, the Law was given to Moses.....so who was responsible for enforcing the law? Wasn't it those in positions of authority?

    The law of Moses is relatively simple...all you have to do is read it and obey it. Its the interpretation and implementation that appear to be unnecessarily complex.....why does it need to be? Life is only as complicated as we make it.

    Why does it take three sets of laws to judge one action? :confused: How will studying it make it uncomplicated and less confusing? :shrug:

    Help me out here.....
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As a Christian, the Jewish scripture in the Bible is my scripture too. I have studied it quite extensively but am unacquainted with what modern Jews believe. I am asking questions because I like to have answers. It has nothing to do with being an expert, but I would like the answer to make some rational sense according to what is taught in the Tanach.

    When Jesus said of the Pharisees..."they strain at gnats but gulp down camels" I am beginning to see what he meant....I did not think my original question was complex.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So its hateful to tell the truth, is it? :shrug: Its not what you want to hear so it has to be "hateful"?
    Well, for an unbeliever, you sure have a lot to say about things that don't have anything to do with you....of what concern is it to you what "believers" believe?

    I have explained already what true Christian love does....it does not stand there and allow someone to forfeit their eternal future for the gratification of the flesh now. It can be 'tough love' but it has the person's best interests at heart....its better than allowing them to walk down a path that we believe leads to death. But it is their decision to make.

    I never said that homosexuals were responsible for their orientation...nor did I say it was evil. I said that its expression in a sexual act is contrary to nature and against what the Bible says. If a person has no regard for what the Bible teaches, then what is the point of arguing? They are free to do whatever they wish. But if someone purports to be a religious Jew or a practicing Christian, then they are under obligation to follow their scripture as the word of God. These are God's laws, not man's. We are not free to alter God's law to suit ourselves.

    Hang on...who said that God made them homosexuals? Why would God make them that way and then penalize them for it? :facepalm: Good grief!

    We inherited all our imperfections from our common ancestor.....Adam. Its a genetic inheritance that we cannot remedy. (Romans 5:12) Hence why God sent his son to fix the problem.

    Who said anything about hate? You keep saying that as if I have a vendetta against gays. All I am is a messenger. I tell people what God's word says and they are free to either accept it or ignore it. I have no hatred towards anyone.....neither did Jesus, although he did castigate the Pharisees at every opportunity.
    He never gave sinners anything but an opportunity to change their ways.

    God's word is not ambiguous in this issue. Its a moral issue and it often requires sacrifice to obey God's law.

    This is the apostle Paul's take on the matter......

    "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

    21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."
    (Romans 7:14-25)

    That explains it better than I can.
     
  13. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Yes.... yes it is... for a certain value of "truth".

    Not surprising you'd get it wrong, though-- the OT isn't your book, is it?
     
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  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    complex enough that they got it wrong by thinking it was simple
    And if you misinterpret it or use your own logic to replace God's?
    They were called (among other things) shoftim (judges) and shotrim (police) and a council of elders. We lack those official institutions now.
    That is, indeed, what you think. It is not how Orthodox Judaism looks at it. What you call interpretation, we see as part and parcel of what God gave.
    Because in life, there are very few things that exist in a vacuum. That's why, for a simplistic example, a murder can be tried as both a criminal and a civil action -- that's 2 sets of laws for one act under secular law.
    That's what study does...
     
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  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Maybe your religious belief system is compelling to you because of its simplicity?

    Maybe other people see things in a more complicated way, and that makes more sense to them?
     
    #35 dybmh, Apr 8, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  16. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your remarks on the subject. I find them insightful, and interesting too.

    It makes sense to me, that a being as complex as God, would require complex rules. Moreover, it would seem to me, that the struggle to understand, would also tend to yield personal growth.

    I would have little respect for a god who wanted mindless robotic-like obedience. If that were the case, why not stick with plants? Humans have incredible brains, especially when contrasted with so much of the life on Earth.

    I would fully expect that God would require us to use them....
     
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  17. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    The new testament is a little less harsh. It doesn't require stoning for what it teaches against. The Old Testament was bloodthirsty to say the least.
     
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  18. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    "little less"? How on *earth* do you figure that?

    It was the NT that introduces Infinite Torture, just in case you don't "love" god back...!

    We go to mere mortal killing (OT) of God's Enemies, to well beyond killing-- a literal custom-built, infinite torture pit....

    .... that is literally Infinite Evil.

    How is that in any way, less harsh?
     
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  19. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Between the two though, I would much rather it be in some spiritual afterlife than in the hands of people here and now carrying out murder. And ,,,not all Christian faiths believe in a literal fire and brimstone hell.
     
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  20. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That depends on the where the congregation falls out on the spectrum of Orthodoxy. The more liberal the congregation, the more likely they are to ignore or disregard Jewish Law. The more conservative, the greater primacy Jewish Law will have and the more likely the individual will either hide their sexuality and try to lead as normal a life as possible, or give up and leave the community altogether.

    Frankly though, there is no difference which particular Law is being broken. The Law is, "an apostate towards one Law is [considered] an apostate towards the entire Torah". So there's not really an difference whether the person in question is performing homosexual acts with another man, smoking a cigarette on the Sabbath, eating bread on Passover, etc.
    That being said, there issues that come into play in any/all of these cases. We separate between "apostasy out of desire" and "apostasy out of rebellion" and we look at whether the person in question transgresses in public or tries to hide it if I recall correctly.

    In terms of an "apostate out of rebellion" or someone who sins publicly, there are some things in which they are considered Jewish and some things in which we consider them as though they were non-Jews.

    It should be noted that the question is only with regards to physical actions, not states. There's no prohibition to be a homosexual and frankly, I'm certain sure that Rabbinic literature considers sexuality to be fluid.
     
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