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Featured Where Did This Belief Come From?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Left Coast, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Which commands are you talking about?
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly true. The "great tribulation" is for everyone, including the chastening of Jacob (Jeremiah 30:11). If the time was not "cut short", no one would survive (Matthew 24:22). The false hope of the lost, is that they will be "raptured" according to some English teenager in around the 17th century. That is false, as the "tares" (lawless) will be the "first" one's "gathered", and then thrown into the fire (Matthew 13:30), and the good seed will be "gathered", and put into the barn (promised land) later (Ezekiel 37:25). In order to "go into your room" and "shut the door", at the time of the Lord's day (Isaiah 26:20), one must first have a room to go to, or for those in Jerusalem, a mountain to flee to/escape (Joel 2:32) & (Matthew 24:16). One must be ready at all times (Matthew 24:43). While one may remain calm in the midst of the storm, that is because they are prepared, and know what is coming, and walk with God. If one walks with evil, their whole supposed life is full of fear. We are now living in a world were most everyone is walking in fear and apprehension. Besides lack of safe water, stress, starvation, and apparently cold per Matthew 24:20 will be high on the list of killers. Without power, most will die quickly of unsafe water and conditions due to the "great earthquake" of Revelation 16:18, whereas the cities "fall".
     
  4. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    I reply.. The Church Jesus established in NOT a man made organization it was made by God!
    The Church is; The Body Of Jesus! It has Bishops with linage back to the Apostles... It is Apostolic!
    The Church is ONE.. Because there is only one Body One God! All of these other churches you speak of are man made...They are forced to reject the One Church Jesus established to start their own! All claim to have the only truth but not one believes the same!
    The Church Jesus established is HOLY because God is Holy his Body is holy!
    And the Church Jesus established before he ascended is Universal because God is Universal! NONE OTHER!
    You deceive yourself if you think the LDS is the same as the Baptist; If you think the Anglican is the same as the Pentecostal! If you think the Seventh Day Adventist is the same as the Mennonite etc!
    One says everyone can be God another tells you you don't need to be Baptized to enter the Kingdom yet another tells you Baptism is a must! Baptize children, another will tell you never! WHACK-Oh to think one is the same as another! Whack-oh to think God would cause all of this chaos! Satan is the cause of the Chaos!
    ONLY the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has roots (Linage) back to Jesus! ONLY.. The Catholic Church fulfills scripture Prophesy!
     
  5. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    I never brought up the rapture, I said that the elect will have less to fear (intrepid) rather than the infidels. I am unsure of what will occur exactly between the 3.5 yrs of peace and that of the tribulation, but, either way, the best defense is increasing one's faith in God, His son, and the general eschatological events that are required to take place so that we are not caught off-guard or fall short of our calling - irrespective of the exact sequence or actions that will take place..
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "elect" apparently can possibly be mislead (Matthew 24:24). And it is for the "sake" of the "elect" that the "great tribulation" was "cut short", less no life should have been saved (Matthew 24:24). The "rapture" is simply a false narrative according to the message of Yeshua in Matthew 13:30, but one that the "many" believe, to try and mitigate their fears. "Time, times, and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 does not refer to 3.5 years, but the time period initiated by the 7th head of the beast (Revelation 17), Constantine, who set up the Roman church, and who precedes the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17), who was one of the seven, the 5th head (Revelation 17:11). As for the "three days and a half of Revelation 11:11, that would refer to the same period of time, just previous to "the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ" (Revelation11:15). That would include the 42 months whereas the "court" which is "outside the temple" has been given to the nations/gentiles for them to "tread under foot" (Revelation 11:2). Their is no 3.5 years of peace in the future. As James correctly stated, "faith" is an action based on "belief" (James 2). As for having "faith" in God/Allah, that alone and 5 dollars can maybe get you a cup of Star Buck coffee. One has to heed God's message, whether being from the Law and the prophets, or given by the son of man (Matthew 7:24), of whom Moses said you should listen. (Deuteronomy 18:15) We are in the "tribulation" of Matthew 24:9-11, in a time of "false prophets". The "great tribulation" is to follow (Matthew 24:21).

    New American Standard Bible (Revelation 11:15)
    Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It is absolutely clear, or at least should be, that Jesus started an organization with his selection of the Twelve, and it is absolutely clear that the Apostles chose successors as found in Acts and many of the epistles. Clearly, Jesus did not want a free-for-all whereas anything goes, which is what would have happened had he not created his Church as an organization with powers to "loosen and bind"-- iow, power to make decisions as time went on without him.

    More importantly, the "Cornerstone".
     
  8. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    Starbucks charges $5 for a coffee?
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Salted Caramel Mocha is $5.25. Caffe Latte Venti is $4.25, depending on location. Plus tax. A quarter for a cup of coffee is long gone. The problem is that the poor are often addicted to both cigarettes and coffee, which often lead to more hard drug addictions. My country grocery store has a Starbucks, and they generally have a fairly long line waiting for coffee. In my day, you could buy a very nice lunch dinner for $1.25. My college food ticket, from my food club, which covered all meals except Sunday morning, was $45 per month, and my rent was around $40 per month. I graduated with money in the bank. The cost of cigarettes depends on the state, but in Alaska, it is around $9.79 per pack. How people pay for cigarettes and coffee is beyond me.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    One of the 12 was Judas Iscariot, in the fulfillment of Zechariah 11:12-13. Peter and Paul where also chosen in fulfillment of that prophecy (Zechariah 11:10 & 11:16-17). Both of them were chosen to "pasture" "the flocked doomed for slaughter", which would be the Gentile church. As for the power to loose and bind, Yeshua chose Peter to fulfill that prophecy, with regard to the keys of David (Isaiah 22:22), and with the power to loose and bind, but in the case of Isaiah 22, that chosen person/Peter was deposed/killed, and his successor, the pope, will "fall", and everyone hanging on to that successor, will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25). As for "Acts", and the epistles, Acts was written by some unknown author, as were about half of the epistles. Not a good foundation to build your house/church.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe their are very few born again Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. Mostly there are people with quasi-Christian beliefs.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that comes down to what one believes a Christian is. Roman Catholics believe it is a baby with some water sprinkled on its head. In that case you could get atheistic Christians.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus and the Apostles certainly didn't believe in that "just believe what you want and do your own thing" approach and then call it "Christianity".

    Oh, so the depth of the water and/or how much is used is the determining thing about what's supposedly a proper baptism? That's not what the Gospel says, so what you've proposed is nothing more than ritualism on steroids.
     
  14. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    ...not only how they can afford it but also tolerate the dependency and vice, is beyond fathoming?
     
  15. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    While there is no doubt that the Catholic Church had its beginnings, founded 'on' Jesus, by the Holy Spirit?, one question among many is why would Jesus, whose mission as stated in the Gospels, is to the Jews, it would seem that a new religion, a new church, was not His concern, but the renewal of HIs own. As for the Apostles, found this interesting;
    All the Gospels portray a group of the Twelve existing during Jesus' ministry, and 1 Cor 15:5 implies that they were in existence by the time of the Resurrection appearances. Therefore there is little reason to doubt that Jesus chose the Twelve. Why did he do this? We have only one saying attributed to Jesus himself about the purpose of the Twelve: he had chosen them to sit on (twelve) thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28; Lk 22:28-30).
    In the renewed Israel which Jesus was proclaiming there were to be twelve men, just as there were twelve sons of Jacob/Israel at the beginnings of the original Israel. The Dead Sea Scrolls community of the New Covenant adopted the same symbolism, for they had a special group of twelve in their Community Council (1QS 8:1).
    raymond_brown_episkope_and_episkopos.pdf (weebly.com)
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    At first yes, but relatively few converted as Jesus' message was really quite radical in reference to Jewish Law, which had and has 613 Commandments. Thus, gentiles, probably mostly "God-Fearers" at first, were allowed in as a manifestation of Jesus' very liberal take on Jewish Law.

    Well said, imo.

    He's my favorite Catholic theologian-- pretty controversial though. ;)
     
  17. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Only among the conservative and the Apologists, much to there dismay he has always remained within Catholic orthodoxy, evident by the fact of his being twice appointed to the Pontifical Biblical Commission by two popes. I don't know if you are familiar with the PBC but it is a world wide group of biblical scholars seated within the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, in Brown's time Joseph Ratzinger, later Benedict XVI, was the head of the Commission. Brown had been appointed by Paul VI and again by John Paul II. He was the editor of that mammoth 'New Jerome Biblical Commentary.'
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 15:5 was supposedly written by the false prophet Paul, around 53 AD, a non witness/observer of the event he describes, and any "twelve", would not include Judas, but possibly Matthias. Judas (Zechariah 11:12-13) was one of the 3 shepherds "annihilated" in one "month"/generation (Zechariah 11:8), the other two being Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17) and Paul (Zechariah 11:10). Both Peter and Paul, were to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter", which would be the Gentile church. The son of man, in the form of Hosea (Hosea 3), was only to stay with the Gentile church (adulteress) for "many days", and then Israel will return to the Lord God, and David their king, in the "last days". Well, we are in the "last days", and Judah has been restored to the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), and only the destruction of the nations/Gentiles (Jeremiah 30:11), and the reunification of Judah with Ephraim remains (Ezekiel 37:19).
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I had the Jerome Bible Commentary but donated it to our local parish's library-- great source!

    Brown has been published outside of the imprimatur, such as with his analysis of the Book of Revelation, if my memory is correct. This is not unusual with some Catholic theologians as it tends to give them more leeway so as to deal with certain controversial theologies without going against Catholic teachings per se. Brown has been cautioned before because he has "pushed the envelop" at times.
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Yet if I am a Christian then logic has it that I am in the Body of Christ, the Church that Christ established, even if I am not a Roman Catholic.
     
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