1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Where Did This Belief Come From?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Left Coast, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    If you read Ezekiel 34:20-23, in which the "Lord God" will do the judging, when he delivers them, and then set over them one shepherd, "David". Per Ezekiel 36 & 37, Judah and Ephraim remain apart, and have not been delivered as of this time. Historically, Judah, the Jews have been given Judea in a degree, but Ephraim remains scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19). As for the true church, which keeps the commandments of God and holds to the testimony of Yeshua, they will be hidden from "dragon"/devil for time, times and half a time, which will be the time span of the Roman church of Constantine, before it falls (Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 12:14-17). And the tares, which are compared to the ones who "commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:41-42), they will be "first" gathered to be thrown into the furnace of fire, and then the wheat will be gathered into the barn. This is the exact opposite of what most Protestants are taught. As for Catholics, they are only taught to listen to the pope, whose reign is coming to an end, and his followers will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25). As for keeping the commandments, Yeshua said it is not hard to do. (1 John 5:3) & (Matthew 19:17)

    There is a difference between the tare seed and the tares, and the good seed, and harvested wheat, sons of the kingdom.. The "good seed" is the seed (message sown by the son of man) (Matthew 13:37), and tare seed, is the message of the "devil", by way of his false prophets, which produces tares, sons of the devil. At the end of the age, the angels will separate the "wicked"/lawless from the righteous, and throw the "wicked"/lawless, into the "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:47-50). The wicked/lawless, may be among the righteous, just as the message of the devil, and his false prophets, is in the same field/book, as the message of the son of man. Those of the light, choose the light, and those of the darkness, choose the darkness. If you want to understand real scripture, you have to throw out the tare seed, the messages of the false prophets, whose "foremost" is Paul.

    King James Version
    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    If you want to build your house on sand, Acts would be a good start. Supposedly, Acts was written by some unknown guy named Luke, and according to Luke 1:1-3, he is just an unknown guy who compiles 2nd hand unattributed stories together. The stories don't even correspond to each other. Were the people with Paul in the desert blinded, or made deaf? Two stories, two different conclusions. Was Peter leader of the Gentiles, or of the Jews? What does Galatians 2:7 say, and what does Acts 15:7 say? That is why Yeshua didn't care for double minded hypocrisy.
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    And who changed the times, the Sabbath day, in 321 AD, by edict, and who ratified multiple gods at the Council of Nicaea, which is changing the law (Daniel 7:25)? As for the NT canon, per Matthew 13:24-25, the message of the devil, was seeded in the same field/book as that of the son of man (Matthew 13:37). The canon of the Roman church was codified in 367 AD, but the gospel of Matthew preceded that event. The chaff remains with the wheat, and it will take a winnowing to separate the two. That winnowing is behind the door, and has only been put off per the patients of God. (Matthew 3:12) (Isaiah 28:27-28) (Isaiah 27:12-13). The chaff/tares became tares by way of the message of the devil and his minions, which is mixed with the message of the son of man. The tares believe they will surely not die (Genesis 3:4), and per the message of Paul. They surely will die (Jeremiah 31:30).
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    39,268
    Ratings:
    +19,761
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    The Council at Nicea did not "ratify multiple gods", the Gospel books selected by the Church include more than just the book of Mathew, plus some of the books in your Bible were quite contentious [that included the Book of Revelation, btw], Jesus said he would guide the Church with the giving of the Paraclete, thus whatever your denomination is it simply cannot be considered as going back to Jesus and the Apostles if it is not descendent from the Church.

    BTW, the using of "Roman Church" is also a false pretense since the word "Roman" didn't get used until centuries later when what we call the "Uniate Churches" merged with the Catholic Church. Up until then since the end of the 2nd century that main name of the Church was "Catholic".
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    39,268
    Ratings:
    +19,761
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    I forgot this.

    Seems that you are unaware that Jesus gave the Apostles the right to make changes, and they in tern appointed their own successors as is covered in Acts and some of the epistles. This has been going on for almost 2000 years now.
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    Your "Paraclete", the comforter, the anointing, was given to the "little children"/babes (1 John 2:26-29), which would preclude the "wise, and intelligent" from obtaining understanding (Matthew 11:25). No one was to be called leader, nor father, or teacher (Matthew 23:8-10), which is the opposite of what the false prophet Paul, and his churches preach. The Roman church was not given official Roman sanction until Theodosius in 380, based on the Nicene Trinity Christianity (multiple gods), which was set by the Pontifex Maximus, the Roman Emperor, Constantine in 325 AD. The earliest followers of the Way, would be the church of Jerusalem under James. The early apostles apparently gave way to James as brother of Yeshua. Peter apparently was cast into a vast country (Roman empire)(Isaiah 22:17-18), and apparently became bishop of the Antioch church (Eastern church), before going onto Rome to supposedly be hung on a tree into the night (cursed). Supposedly Paul appointed the first bishop of Rome, who was not Peter. Apparently, according to some sources, the followers of Peter and Paul didn't get along well, which ended in Nero killing both of them for the trouble they caused. Paul's murder may have also had a political motive with regards to Paul's political benefactor, Herod, falling out of favor with Nero. The basic creed of the "Christian" church, the gospel of grace, was dependent on the false prophet Paul, who was a self professed apostle, among many, who came onto the scene later in the game. As for Peter supposedly giving a nod to Paul as being his brother, well, Peter, the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, according to the consensus of academics, didn't write 2 Peter. And indeed, Peter and Paul were both brother shepherds/staffs, in pasturing the "flock doomed for slaughter" (Gentile church), per Zechariah 11:7.
     
  7. DNB

    DNB Christian

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,932
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Well, you got that right, ...still not sure what your point is, though?
     
  8. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,540
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Catholic
    DNB the Trinity is NOT false!
     
  9. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    8,737
    Ratings:
    +498
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    If humans state before I human write the New testaments the human reason had not been lived experienced nor owned.

    So before the new testaments are old human written books.

    Reasoning human. I write the books as a human applied status.

    To write.
    To know what I am reasoning.
    To record it in book form proving a human was living by book status. I wrote it.

    So then you ask what did you think human before book writing?

    Either you used to teach by verbal human stories or before you could live to write you never existed.

    To then ask a human question rationally.

    Didn't human information quote O earth existed. Heavens existed. The nature garden existed. Then humans owned life?

    Yes.

    Why then do book writers theists quote I am telling a human god truth from nothing to instant!

    As you would be human proven telling incorrect human teachings.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    Athanasius, called a saint (holy) by the church, was wrong about the Trinity dogma, as well as his canon being the "Word of God". The point is that neither the church, nor Athanasius, were, or are holy. As for the Roman church, who think that Peter is the rock the church is built on, that rabbit hole was set up by Yeshua himself (Matthew 5:17) to fulfill Isaiah 22, and Zechariah 11, and Hosea 3. whereas the adulterous woman, the Gentile church, would be purchased for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, to be kept for many days (Hosea 3), until Israel returned, and the guy, supposedly with the keys of David, the pope, will last until "in that day", the day of the Lord", the great tribulation, when he would "fall", and those hanging onto him would be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25), and all three shepherds, "Favor" (Paul), Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13),and Peter, the "worthless shepherd"/Cords, who would not feed, care, or tend the sheep (Zechariah 11:16-17), would be "annihilated" in "one month" (generation) (Zechariah 11:8). The "day of the Lord" is approaching (Joel 2 & 3), whereas the nations/Gentiles will be judged in the valley of judgment. Although Athanasius was prominent in the Trinity dogma, it was the "beast with two horns like a lamb", the Roman emperor Constantine, who got the job done by the power of his office as Pontifex Maximus/Pontiff, and emperor of Rome, to fulfill Daniel 7:25, in changing the law of "have no other gods before me". (Deuteronomy 6:4) The Gentile church of Peter & Paul is built on a foundation of sand, and Athanasius would just be one grain of that foundation (Matthew 7:24-27). A little wind, rain, and flooding, and that church/house will fall (Matthew 7:27). A rain coat will be inefficient protection of the coming turbulence.
     
  11. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,540
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Catholic
    .
    Brian2 I add.to my post above this one... something to consider.. ...
    Jesus established only one church before he ascended! Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH his Church to the very end of time! You have to make a decision.. Did Jesus lie!?
    Jesus built his church on ROCK not on sand.. Jesus promised his Church will never fail! Again; "Did Jesus lie"? Did God fail; did the building up of the One Holy Church fail!?
    Brian2 Did Satan somehow overpower Jesus and did Satan TAKE the Holy Body of Jesus away from Jesus!?
    If you are NOT Catholic then you are IN one of the thousands of Man Made Churches that say; "Jesus failed" that "Jesus lied" that "the One Church he built on rock failed"!
    If you are NOT Catholic then you are IN one of the thousands of Man Made Churches that say; They MUST come to God' rescue, that THEY must restore to Jesus what Jesus could not hold onto!
    If you are NOT Catholic then you are IN one of the thousands of Man Made Churches that say; The Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to lead his Church into all truth FOREVER.. Failed! That the Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth lead Jesus' Holy Church into error!
    There are thousands of these man made Churches all proclaiming to have the ONLY truth but not even two of these thousands believe the same things!
     
  12. DNB

    DNB Christian

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,932
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Oh, but it is, diabolically so!
     
  13. DNB

    DNB Christian

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,932
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christianity
    no, rain boots and pants will also be required,
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    39,268
    Ratings:
    +19,761
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    You obviously pick & choose what you want to believe, plus you avoid the "big picture" of the leadership of Jesus, the Apostles, and their appointees that still continues today with several denominations. On top of that, you continue to quote verses from the canon of the Bible that same exact Church selected as you have repeatedly claimed that it fell into apostacy.

    IOW, you're not making any sense.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    There is the rub. Wading boots will only hasten ones downfall in a real "flood" (Matthew 7:27). Even a rain coat and pants will weight a person down. Better to go naked, flip your pants, encapsulating air, and swim to the nearest high rock. Or better yet, flee the city (Revelation 16:19), "enter into your room" and "shut the door" (Isaiah 26:20). To make sure you don't have to drink from the cup of God's wrath, you might also want to avoid getting the mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb, Constantine. (Revelation 16:19 & Revelation 14:10-11).
     
  16. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,540
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Catholic
    .
    DNB Christians Worship Jesus because Jesus is God! Christians have ALWAYS worshiped Jesus!
    Scriptures tell us Jesus is God!
    To reject Jesus is to reject Christian teaching and the scriptures!
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,588
    Ratings:
    +223
    In order to try and meet apparent forum standards, which I was just sent, I will have to rewrite my opinion as follows. IMO, I am making sense to those with ears to hear, and not to those without ears to hear (Isaiah 6:9) It is one thing to act on the message given by Yeshua, and other, to act on the message of some self professed Pharisee of Pharisees apostle (Deuteronomy 16:67). I can understand the discomfort of having to base your argument on the wind (traditions of men), but if you don't think it is right for me to include quotes from the NT canon you use. then for your comfort, I could try and remember to quote from only the Law and the prophets, the same "Scripture" that Yeshua used, in respect to my comments to you. I would hope that would be acceptable, since this forum is about "Scriptural Debate", and most people consider the Law and the prophets as being part of Scripture. Even the Quran declares the book of the Jews, and the message of Isa Ibn Maryam, Yeshua, as being from Allah/God. I could simply go to the "rock", such as Isaiah 6:9, instead of the quote from Isaiah used by Yeshua in Matthew 13:13-15. Either way, you will IMHO, not be able to defend your positions in any sort of fair debate. Is this a "Scriptural debate forum", or an opinion forum? The apparent forum rules seem to kind of muddy the waters, whereas every comment apparently has to be framed as an opinion, versus being built on the "rock"/"tested stone". (Isaiah 28:16).
     
    #157 2ndpillar, Sep 25, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  18. DNB

    DNB Christian

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,932
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Well, one's best means of defense is to be honest with oneself and accept God's sovereignty and supremacy, and His son who He ordained as Lord and Messiah. Therefore, wading boots or not, one will find themselves intrepid and unconcerned at the catastrophes that will befall man at the end times.
     
  19. DNB

    DNB Christian

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,932
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christianity
    No, as a Christian, which I am, I reject your teaching, and anyone else's who worships Jesus as god. That is idolatry. and you have bastardized the essence and ontology of the single, unconfused and undivided Godhead.
    I worship Jesus as the only man who ever loved God with all his heart, mind and soul. Something that I have never accomplished even though it is incumbent upon me to do so, and within my capabilities.
    Those who call Jesus god will be utterly ashamed and, in my opinion, rejected on Judgement Day.
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    6,262
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    If I am a Christian then I am in the church that Jesus started.
    The idea is to come to Jesus and not to a particular man made organisation. The Catholic Church also is one of these. The church that Jesus established will not fail as it stands on the Rock, Jesus.
     
Loading...