Where Did This Belief Come From?

[Brian2]

It is absolutely clear, or at least should be, that Jesus started an organization with his selection of the Twelve, and it is absolutely clear that the Apostles chose successors as found in Acts and many of the epistles. Clearly, Jesus did not want a free-for-all whereas anything goes, which is what would have happened had he not created his Church as an organization with powers to "loosen and bind"-- iow, power to make decisions as time went on without him.

The organisation changed as time went by and now the Church is what it is and I am a part of it.

 

[metis]

The organisation changed as time went by and now the Church is what it is and I am a part of it.

Let me put it this way: I don't lose any sleep over this one way or the other. Jesus told the Apostles that even those outside the fold who preach the Good News are "for us", so...

 

[2ndpillar]

Let me put it this way: I don't lose any sleep over this one way or the other. Jesus told the Apostles that even those outside the fold who preach the Good News are "for us", so...

The non witness Mark, and the unknown Luke, said: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us, which is not what you quoted. And Matthew, an actual apostle, and witness, wrote: New King James Version 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
Three different meanings. As for what the false prophet Paul taught about Paul's "good news", that would be his false gospel of the cross/grace, lawlessness, which is antithetical to the message of the "kingdom", which is one of justice and righteousness (Isaiah 28:17), one of a final judgment, and a kingdom governed by the righteous. Zechariah 14:16

 

[Muffled]

Jesus and the Apostles certainly didn't believe in that "just believe what you want and do your own thing" approach and then call it "Christianity".

Oh, so the depth of the water and/or how much is used is the determining thing about what's supposedly a proper baptism? That's not what the Gospel says, so what you've proposed is nothing more than ritualism on steroids.

I believe you are in error. No one is saying do your own thing. The difference between believing works are necessary and not shows up in what Jesus stated and the Apostles believed. The difference is that legalists like the RCC are saying you have to follow every written word whereas Jesus said you only have to follow Him.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

I believe you are in error. Baptism isn't about the water at all but is about a good testimony of a good conscience and a baby does not have that.

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[metis]

I believe you are in error. No one is saying do your own thing.

Without an organization to lead and eventiually select what we should abide by, that is exactly what would have happened as scripture and rules do not select themselves. This is obviously why Jesus chose the Twelve and why they chose successors that are mentioned in Acts and the epistles.

The difference between believing works are necessary and not shows up in what Jesus stated and the Apostles believed

The Sermon On the Mount has "works" as the largest posrtion of that monologue by Jesus. What I believe you are likely conflating is with "works under the Law" [Jewish Law], which indeed is not mandatory for Christians.

The difference is that legalists like the RCC are saying you have to follow every written word whereas Jesus said you only have to follow Him.

As a teacher within the Church, that is simply not true. The Church has the right and obligation to teach, which is what Jesus and the Twelve did, but we then take that which is taught and deal with it in our own way.

IOW, a blind following of Church teachings is not taught. Just take a look at some of my posts as an example.

Baptism isn't about the water at all but is about a good testimony of a good conscience and a baby does not have that.

Which is why either sprinkling or dunking are acceptable.

The early Church, because of one of the early plaques, took the sacrament of Baptism and separated into two sacraments if infant baptism was used: Baptism and Confirmation. If one is baptized as an adult, then both are administered at exactly the same time.

 

[2ndpillar]

I believe you are in error. No one is saying do your own thing. The difference between believing works are necessary and not shows up in what Jesus stated and the Apostles believed. The difference is that legalists like the RCC are saying you have to follow every written word whereas Jesus said you only have to follow Him.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

I believe you are in error. Baptism isn't about the water at all but is about a good testimony of a good conscience and a baby does not have that.

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

You appear to be wrong on your over all view on baptism, which is either of water, Spirit, or fire (Matthew 3). The baptism of water would be in alignment with the confession of sins, which babies don't fall under, and repentance, which again, babies have no need. But as for having a "good conscience, the problem is one of no conscience, due to a hardening of the heart, based largely on false beliefs. As for the baptism of fire, the trees which do not produce good fruit will be thrown into that fire (Matthew 3:10) (great tribulation), which is coming up at the end of the age with respect to the harvest, in which the final harvest is in the fall, and would correspond to the feast of Booths (Zechariah 14:16) when the "Lord of hosts" will be set up as king in Jerusalem, and the nations/Gentiles, will "worship the king", and keep the feast of Booths. And "baptism" does not "save you", as shown by the statement made to the "brood of vipers", the Pharisees. They were warned if they did not produce good fruit, along with their baptism, they would be tossed into the fire. The fire can kill, or it can purify. The sons of Levi will be purified (Malachi 3:2-3) and then their offerings will be continued.

 

[Left Coast]

*pokes head back into own thread*

*sees thread has gone completely off topic*

Huh.

Carry on then.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe you are in error. No one is saying do your own thing. The difference between believing works are necessary and not shows up in what Jesus stated and the Apostles believed. The difference is that legalists like the RCC are saying you have to follow every written word whereas Jesus said you only have to follow Him.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

I believe you are in error. Baptism isn't about the water at all but is about a good testimony of a good conscience and a baby does not have that.

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The very verse that you yourself quoted says something opposite of you. You quoted, "Baptism now saves you." That would make Baptism something a good deal more important than what you described.

 

[Muffled]

*pokes head back into own thread*

*sees thread has gone completely off topic*

Huh.

Carry on then.

I believe you are right. However the RCC believes in tradition which is not Biblical. So how do we verify if the traditions come from God or not. I believe that would be by what the Holy Spirit says about them.

 

[metis]

However the RCC believes in tradition which is not Biblical.

Depends on which traditions you're referring to.

Also: 2Thes.2[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Also, Jesus said this: Matthew.16[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus created an organization, not a book or series of books, to run his Church, and he gave them the power to make decisions. And with the appointment of the Apostles, they in turn chose others to carry on with this organization as we see in Acts and the epistles, thus decisions would have to be made in the future as all organizations have to do.

 

[2ndpillar]

Let me put it this way: I don't lose any sleep over this one way or the other. Jesus told the Apostles that even those outside the fold who preach the Good News are "for us", so...

And what is the "good news" that Yeshua taught, versus the "good news" that your church teaches? What was the manner in which Yeshua taught, versus the manner in which your church teaches? I think you are actually twisting what Yeshua said, and for what purpose. Yeshua's message was that of the "kingdom of God" . And by what power does the pope cast out demons, oh yeah, he failed at casting out demons.

Matthew 12:30 Context

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

 

[metis]

And what is the "good news" that Yeshua taught, versus the "good news" that your church teaches? What was the manner in which Yeshua taught, versus the manner in which your church teaches? I think you are actually twisting what Yeshua said, and for what purpose. Yeshua's message was that of the "kingdom of God" . And by what power does the pope cast out demons, oh yeah, he failed at casting out demons.

Your twistilng what I posted in a pathetically dishonest manner, which is why I almost never comment on your posts. If your bigotry keeps you from at the least checking out what we do at mass, then that's on you.

 

[2ndpillar]

Your twistilng what I posted in a pathetically dishonest manner, which is why I almost never comment on your posts. If your bigotry keeps you from at the least checking out what we do at mass, then that's on you.

I was raised in a Catholic family, attended a Catholic school, so I think I know how the traditional Catholic church works. Of course, at that time, the church used Latin, and as an altar boy, I mumbled in Latin, but I doubt if things have fundamentally changed except for the music, the language, and the expose on the priesthood, and corruption of the Vatican. You didn't point out any dishonesty on my part, yet the verse I quoted seemed to point out you had incorrectly expanded on what was actually said. Apparently, admitting your misconceptions might lead you to loosing your supposed salvation. I can recognize the reason for your hesitancy, but I think it leads down a wide path. (Matthew 7:13)

 

[Muffled]

Depends on which traditions you're referring to.

Also: 2Thes.2[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Also, Jesus said this: Matthew.16[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus created an organization, not a book or series of books, to run his Church, and he gave them the power to make decisions. And with the appointment of the Apostles, they in turn chose others to carry on with this organization as we see in Acts and the epistles, thus decisions would have to be made in the future as all organizations have to do.

I believe Paul also said wolves would creep in:
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

 

[metis]

I believe Paul also said wolves would creep in:
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Yes, and these were what became called "heresies" and "heretics". They even existed during Jesus' time.

This is one big reason why Paul was so adamant that there only be "one church" [w many local churches obviously].