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Where did Jesus get his teaching of the afterlife from?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by arcanum, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. XionComrade

    XionComrade New Member

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    In the Bible, If I am not mistaken, it is held that he was taught by Angels and a bit of a traveler. In the Qu'ran, to my understanding, he was also given/had a book(Used to help teach the Apostles also), the true "New Testament", that has since been lost(The Gospels being second and third hand accounts of him only, largely distorted throughout the ages).

    My studies into The Law of One and some Channeling, as well as some Traditions, if I am not mistaken, hold that he was a traveler at a very young age, and a super humanly voracious consumer of knowledge. By the age of 13 had acquired the knowledge required of a Rabbi(Some 30 years of hard study). It is my understanding that, according to the description given of him by the Channeled messages, he would not have had the veil that we have that blocks us from reality, (many of the prophets were not merely bound to their physical bodies, a spiritually adept people, something required of a prophet). In Christ's case it was much more extreme to my understanding though. Whereas a prophet may be someone about to transcend the physical body and enter into the proverbial "Kingdom of Heaven" or the next step in Spiritual Evolution(The 4th Density, Density of Love), Christ was something that came from Heaven(From God, Love, the highest point of the 4th Density) into a physical body. Much much more to it than that, but I am not so well versed in these matters, perhaps a later time...Remember in the Bible, God is Love, Love is God. There is reason and sense to all of this distorted dogma, whether we are aware of it or not(Most people don't).

    In other words, to my current understanding, he would have been taught much from other Consciousnesses/Entities(Aliens, Angels) during his time on Earth. More or less at will. Would have been a trip to have known him when he was here I think.
     
    #21 XionComrade, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  2. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    what sources could you supply for this chain of thought
     
  3. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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  4. XionComrade

    XionComrade New Member

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    Only from my study of Extraterrestrials/Abduction Phenomena, then on to Channeling(In particular the works of LL Research, all of their material is free on their website, a good sign in and of itself tbh) did I come to this conclusion. I am not sure if I am right, you would have to study it for yourself, but that is what I eventually came to. The "extra-terrestrials" are not quite what we think they are, they are more. Yes they come from a different area of Space(IE another Planet or whatever), but are "Spirits", beings that have evolved past the biological body. Apparently to my understanding, there is not only a physical/biological evolution, but a much more important Spiritual Evolution to be considered. I am a amateur in Physics at the most, but I think the field of Quantum Mechanics/Physics will be able to describe/explain all of this and all of the ET phenomena, with due time of course.

    More or less after studying it for so long, beings coming in through thin air(Or a sort of Plasma like light preceding them), ships materializing out of clouds, telepathy, psychic phenomena...The descriptions being given to the entities themselves matched pretty well with ancient descriptions of Demonic Spirits and Angels. Even some old paintings of the "Ships", or crystals as I have heard it put...To each his own, this is a subject that I tread lightly in, as it is simply to vast for me to wrap my little brain around. It is, I think, the final piece of the puzzle for humanity before we enter into the "Next Age", before we can be united in freedom and love if all goes well, or brought under tyranny one more time if it isn't handled properly(A Worldwide Empire, no freedom, the NWO)it is that profound/important.

    To give the story though, even though this may be irrelevant and bore you, this is how I came about this phenomena. It started with the Sasquatch Phenomena, the Forest Giants as some of my friends along the way called them. A race of giant, relatively hairy Native people(Sort of like a leftover "caveman", they are people by my definition, but different from us, the Natives hold that they were here before they were and used to be quite common actually). Possibly thousands of them living mostly in the mountainous regions of North America(East and West Coast USA/British Columbia in particular) Smart enough to not be "discovered" by modern science(To skeptical for it's own good in some ways, but tbh I understand why someone with a PHD would want to stay far away from such a subject given the scoffing nature of today's society and all of the crazies in the field of bigfoot research XD), but curious enough to be a fact of life for thousands of Americans...Ironically I became interested a few years ago, with the Georgia Hoax, where the two guys tried to pull one off on everyone. I noticed the uproar, how many people were interested in the subject and began to dig. At the outer shell it is true, liars, con artists, and just all around BS abound. Eventually I got to talking to people from all around, hundreds of people, and reading thousands of sighting reports, audio recordings, pictures(None ever very good), you name it. All in all I counted about 8000 reports I had read and 15-20,000 that existed from reputable people, all together describing a phenomena that was very real, but I will leave that long discussion for the interesting things that kept repeating themselves over and over again and the data collected for later, they are not so important. All you need to know is that it was overwhelmingly in favor of a very real creature, possibly even with a primitive language, enormous in size(About 8-9 foot tall average). I became very familiar with Native culture through doing this, as they have typically kept such "Secrets" from the "White Man" by tradition, due to European Culture's well...violent/aggressive stupidity. 3 years later, after hard study of the phenomena, I concluded that it was utterly impossible and even ridiculous to dismiss such a thing as fake, got a pretty good grip on the subject, and got to sharpen some nice researching skills as far as digging through a bunch of crap to get to gold(In this case, the phenomena/subject was relatively small, mostly useful information and really not that much BS/crackpot material). The effect that such a endeavor had on me was astounding, it really opened my eyes to the world, just how little we know and how muddled everything is in science and society. Almost like a chick hatching out of a egg, that is how I would describe Humanity right now, and myself included. I had gained a tremendous respect for the Native peoples of America, their honesty and integrity even while being spat on by the invading society so to speak. They never lied about the subject, they just stayed quiet about it. Kept the legends and teachings true to themselves. It was around this time I discovered that yes, not only did they hold knowledge of the Forest Giants for thousands of years, but also the "Star Nations", the "Blues", "Star People" something that I had never considered before, the final piece. And so it started, and continues to today, and God willing will continue for me for decades to come, the product of a individual living in a free society, freedom to learn and search and grow. Whereas the Sasquatch, once discovered(Within the next year or so more than likely) will be easily one of the biggest (re)discoveries to science of all time, the ET phenomena holds the biggest (re)discovery to humanity of all time I believe. The unveiling of the Sasquatch will have a tremendous impact on humanity, it will do the same for humanity what it did for me, open their eyes ever so slowly. It will propel us to search into the ET phenomena, and then the so called "Psychic" phenomena. The chick is coming out of the egg, these are trying and very important times, so very delicate. Each of these discoveries brings a new host of terrible problems and fantastic solutions to us imo. We must tread lightly I think.
     
  5. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    When Jesus was in hell for 3 days, he did not exist. Those were the 3 days that he was dead just as the scriptures said he would be.


    Hades is the corresponding word to the hebrew word 'sheol'... they both mean the same thing. They both mean the common grave of mankind, or the place for the dead. Everyone who dies on earth goes to hades. And the word 'hell' is the corresponding word for hades. So when we die, we all go to hell. Its not a place where we are conscious...it is simply the grave.

    Tartarus is different to hades in that Tartarus is a 'spiritual prison'. Its the darkness where the fallen angels have been locked into. Its not a place where humans can exist in any form.


    thats not quite right because in 1962, the Jewish Publication Society of America issued a new translation of the Torah in which they eliminated the word 'soul' from it because, as the editor stated, the english word 'soul' does not carry the same meaning as the hebrew word Nefesh.

    To show how the word nefesh is used in scripture, see these verses...they all specify that the soul is the living body:

    Exodus 21:23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth

    Genesis 35:18 And the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died) she called his name Ben-o′ni

    Genesis 9:4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat

    Matthew 2:20 and said: “Get up, take the young child and its mother and be on your way into the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the soul of the young child are dead.”

    John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep



    that would be Gods holy spirit. It is Gods power, his force for good. In the account of Pentecost, the holy spirit was poured out on 120 disciples and gave them powers to speak in different languages:
    Acts 2:2 and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. 3 And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, 4 and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was yet speaking about these matters the holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. ...46 For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God

    so the holy spirit is a power from God...its what gave the apostles the power to heal the sick and raise the dead.

    think about it shermana, if these 'dead' were really our loved ones, why would God stop us from communicating with them? God knows the pain of loosing a loved one in death, he knows how much we suffer when someone we love dies...so if these were really our dead family and friends, why would God tell us to stay away from them?

    God loves us and he loves all his faithful servants who have died. If he loves them, why would he try to keep them away from you?

    We have to trust that there are only two possibilities. Gods word tells us that mankind are mortals. That we die and our life ceases to exist. If that is the case, then the 'dead' cannot be people we know. God knows who these ones are and he is telling us to stay away from them for a good reason.

    Leviticus 20:27 “‘And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them.’”

    1 Chronicles 10:13 Thus Saul died for his unfaithfulness with which he had acted faithlessly against Jehovah concerning the word of Jehovah that he had not kept and also for asking of a spirit medium to make inquiry.

    Do you really believe that God is withholding something good from us by telling us to stay away from people who call up the dead? Why would he do so?


    It is also very clear in saying that mankind return to the dust and are unconscious.

    Eccl 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun

    Psalm 88:10 For those who are dead will you do a marvel? Or will those impotent in death themselves arise, Will they laud you? Se′lah.

    Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.

    Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

    Isaiah 38:18 For it is not She′ol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness.

    John 11:11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz′a‧rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.


    Do you also challenge the legitimacy of the Psalms, Isaiah and gospel of John too?
     
  6. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    That's one opinion. Much "Apocryphal" and "Midrashic" writings, even the Talmud, attest to "Sheol" being a real place with wandering souls.

    I believe that Tartarus corresponds to Gehenna (of which there is no proof that it refers to some valley of burning trash), which is also written of in such literature as the place for very naughty souls.




    The JPS, especially the 1962 authority is not exactly the sole representative of universal and historical Jewish thought. Many Orthodox and Hasidic groups don't like the JPS whatsoever.

    The fact that "Nefesh" here means "life" should give weight to the idea that it refers to the animating principle of the body itself, whatever it may be exactly.
    You should easily see how this testifies to the idea that the soul leaving as a consequence of death means exactly the concept I'm conveying.

    Again, the use of the word "Soul" for "life" backs up what I'm saying here. If the blood contains the "life" that's a reference to the animating principle itself.


    And once again, if "Soul" equals to "life" then it backs my case that its the animating principle, whatever it may be.
    Same thing.




    Fine, but it goes to show that a "Spirit" is a part of one's being, even the Father's, may we never blaspheme it.

    And is the Father the only one with a "Spirit"?


    That's irrelevant and makes no sense to the argument. IT says to not communicate with the dead. Whether you love them or not makes no sense. The implication is that its possible to do so, and we aren't supposed to. End of story.
    That's completely irrelevant. The commandment is to not do it, and that it's possible to do so, whether you like it or not. Maybe we are disturbing them for one thing and summoning them is not something they want.

    Yes, we are Mortals while in the flesh. But souls themselves are called "Elohim", or "gods", as when the Witch says she sees an Elohim when she summons Samuel's soul. It doesn't matter if we know them or not. They could be people we've heard about like Napoleon or Genghis Khan.

    Who says its good? Why does it matter why he would not want us to summon/disturb them? The commandment is quite clear. Do not summon/seance/consult the "dead". It doesn't say "demons", it says "The dead". End of story.



    Once again, Ecclesiaste's canon was disputed back in the day, and I take a very paleo-retro approach. Regardless, who says he was referring to anything more than just the immediate conscious incarnation?

    [/QUOTE]

    I challenge your interpretation of them that they apply to the soul altogether and not just the immediate incarnation.
     
  7. chinu

    chinu Passenger

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    From his teacher.
     
  8. arcanum

    arcanum Active Member

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    The torah never speaks of an afterlife, it's just not there. Death is death, there is no promise of heaven or hell...you live a good life and god will reward you in this life, break god's law and you will be cursed, in this life. Even post torah there really isn't much mentioned in the hebrew scriptures of an afterlife, Please correct me if I'm wrong. Which is why I was asking, Jesus being a 1st century Jew what other cultural elements was he exposed to that formed his teaching of an afterlife? It seems judiasm was forever changed after their exposure to the religious idea's of their Zoroastrian captors. Including the concepts of the soul, heaven and hell which seems pretty absent from the Hebrew scriptures.
     
  9. arcanum

    arcanum Active Member

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    Yes that would be a religious answer, he got it right from God himself. I'm asking more of a cultural question, where he must have been raised in a religious environment that fostered his ideas and it was not strictly that of the temple oriented worship of Jerusalem.
     
  10. arcanum

    arcanum Active Member

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    Your saying Jesus did not exist for 3 days while dead?? I don't believe that, where does it say that? That is your jehovah's witness belief, and in my opinion erroneous. If one believes in an afterlife the only thing that could possible survive is ones spirit, the divine spark, one's consciousness, call it what you want but not a reanimated body(Jesus might have been an exception i don't know). The problem is the bible is not clear about these things, just as the biblical writers knowledge of such matters was imperfect and incomplete. Otherwise we would not be so divded on this topic. Intuitively I can understand ones divine spark surviving the death of the physical body and the spirit does not go into sleep mode or go into suspended animation, it's always very awake and hyper aware.
     
  11. internationalist

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    Jesus, being the second person of the trinity, the Word of the God, learnt all this from zoros? Wow!
     
  12. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Yes you are in fact wrong, as I pointed out to Peg, who had no answer except to question "Why would G-d want to not allow people to talk to their loved ones", it specifically says to not have anyone Contact with the dead. If it wasn't possible to do so, it wouldn't be forbidden. Thus, the Torah specifically and indisputably confirms the fact that the Souls of the "dead" (yes, "dead") are 100% communicatable, but its forbidden to do so.

    Think about this, why are some destined to be born into cursed races like Canaanites and Ammonites? Arbitrariness on the Father's part?

    Looking at the old Midrashic texts, it is clear that Ancient Jews believed in an afterlife, many believed in reincarnation.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=m-...Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Afterlife midrash&f=false
     
    #32 Shermana, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  13. chinu

    chinu Passenger

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    For example: According to your studies in colleage you are just one step far to get the designation of a docter, and due to some circumstances in life you are migrated to some other college in another country, and you just compleated your studies in few time -- because you was just one step far.

    Similarly: the people like Jesus, to whom we call as "Avatars" or "Messihas" etc.. are just one step far from the designation of "God" or just one step far to become one with "God" in their previous births.
     
  14. arcanum

    arcanum Active Member

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    Does anyone know if there is a good book that they could recommend on 1st century Jewish beliefs? One that explore's all the different cultural tributaries that fed into the Jewish belief system of that time?
     
  15. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the bible writers wrote under Gods direction. It think God knows perfectly well what happens to us when we die. He created our life afterall, and he sees what becomes of it when it comes to an end.

    trust Gods word above all others. It is the only true source of knowledge in my opinion.
     
  16. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Did anyone say so?....
    Jesus may have been born into the Jewish life....
    but obviously, He spoke differently.

    What you speak should be of mind and heart.

    He may have been Jewish in appearence and community....
    but that is where the resemblance ends.

    His parables would affirm this.
     
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