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Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)

River Sea

Active Member
Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)

Exodus 5:7 You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

  • Egypt built with stone; there was no need for lots of straw.
  • Indus Valley requires a lot of straw because people all over the place bake bricks, which require a lot of straw.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)

Exodus 5:7 You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

  • Egypt built with stone; there was no need for lots of straw.
  • Indus Valley requires a lot of straw because people all over the place bake bricks, which require a lot of straw.
Think before speaking. See, e.g.,


Happy reading ...
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)

Exodus 5:7 You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

  • Egypt built with stone; there was no need for lots of straDw.
  • Indus Valley requires a lot of straw because people all over the place bake bricks, which require a lot of straw.
Does one mean that Israelites did not migrate from Egypt, please? Right?

Regards
 

River Sea

Active Member

@Jayhawker Soule
Thank you for sharing the PDF file much appreciated.

Page 14
Mudbricks are made up
of three components: soil, water, and temper.

Tempers, sometimes referred to as degreasers or additives, include both vegetal (especially straw or chaff) and nonvegetal inclusions (e.g.,potsherds, grog, ashes)

Page 18
Additional sand and straw can be employed to
compensate for a matrix high in clay to reduce the risk of fracture. Often, vegetal temper is added through the use of dung, which typically contains a high amount of vegetal fiber

@bharat what are your thoughts about the amount of straw needed for mud bricks in this PDF file compare to baking bricks in Indus Valley?
 

River Sea

Active Member
Does one mean that Israelites did not migrate from Egypt, please? Right?

Regards

@paarsurrey
  • I learn from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala about Yadavas-Hebrews-Israelites travel from Indus Valley India to Yisrael with Moses (Exodus from Indus Valley to Canaan Yisrael)
  • The thought of land I'm seeking to understand, as well as how to study land too
  • What is it like to make a bricks in Indus Valley, compare to Egypt? During the time of Moses era
  • How would you make a brick during Moses era?
  • Would you make a mud brick, but that only uses 1% of straw when making mud brick, what about clay, but then straw isn't hot enough for fuel, what caused needing a lot of straw when making baking brick, that uses 50% straw for fuel; that the Pharaoh from Indus Valley demanded that the Hebrews gather straw and keep up with baking bricks, is this the conflict that caused what?
 
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
This PDF talks ONLY about mud-bricks. The conflict of the Pharaoh with the Hebrews was on straw. Straw input in mud bricks is only about 1% by weight while it is 50% in burnt bricks. The Hebrews knew making of baked bricks as told in the Babel narrative. Thus, these mud bricks do not match with the Biblical narrative because (1) These are mud-bricks where the conflict was LIKELY on baked bricks; (2) It would imply a technological regress from Babel to Egypt for which there is no evidence in the Bible.
 

River Sea

Active Member

@Viker
Is this about 1% or 50% straw, from what you shared from website?

@Viker shared from website:

Egyptian homes
As in villages throughout Egypt today, ancient Egyptian houses were built of mudbrick, with palm logs used to support their roofs and ceilings. Mudbrick, also known as adobe, is a cheap and practical material. It was easy to build with and the materials were free and readily available. Bricks were made by mixing mud with chopped-up straw and water, then pressing the mixture into a wooden mould. Once the sun had dried them, they were ready to use.

I learned from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala that mudbricks only use 1% straw.

How would 1% require the Pharaoh to demand the Hebrews gather straw?

Mud bricks aren't what the Pharaoh was asking the Hebrews to make; it's baked bricks that need 50% straw that the Pharaoh would demand in order to cause overload stress for the Hebrews while demanding the same amount of bricks (that's what the conflict was about: a lot of straw). How would 1% cause this level of stress? Plus, in KMT Egypt, they build with stone; there is no need for straw, and any amount of mud bricks that they did use wouldn't cause Hebrews to need to gather straw. In the Indus Valley all over, they build with burned bricks and need a lot of straw. The Hebrews and Pharaoh lived in the Indus Valley (India). Archeological evidence shows the Indus Valley, not KMT Egypt.

Take a look at Exodus 5:7
“You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.

1% straw in mud bricks would fail this evidence from this verse. This verse shows evidence that the location where the Hebrews came from is Indus Valley (India) due to needing a lot of straw, and all over Indus Valley (India), a lot of straw is used for making bricks, burnt bricks.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Where did Exodus 5:7 take place (needs a lot of straw)

The Hebrew word there is Tevel. It could be either straw or chaff or a mixture. Both function the same when making mud bricks.

Ibn Ezra on the verse writes:

"It is customary for those who build with soil to mix it with straw or chaff so that it will last."

In Jeremiah, the same word in Hebrew is used for chaff.

Exodus 5:7

לֹא תֹֽאסִפוּן לָתֵת תֶּבֶן לָעָם לִלְבֹּן הַלְּבֵנִים כִּתְמוֹל שִׁלְשֹׁם הֵם יֵֽלְכוּ וְקֹֽשְׁשׁוּ לָהֶם תֶּֽבֶן׃

You shall no more give the people straw (תֶּֽבֶן) to make bricks, as till now; let them go and gather straw (תֶּֽבֶן) for themselves.

Jeremiah 23:28

הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר־אִתּוֹ חֲלוֹם יְסַפֵּר חֲלוֹם וַֽאֲשֶׁר דְּבָרִי אִתּוֹ יְדַבֵּר דְּבָרִי אֱמֶת מַה־לַתֶּבֶן אֶת־הַבָּר נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה׃

The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he who has my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff (תֶּֽבֶן) to the wheat? says the Lord.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
The Hebrew word there is Tevel. It could be either straw or chaff or a mixture. Both function the same when making mud bricks.

Ibn Ezra on the verse writes:

"It is customary for those who build with soil to mix it with straw or chaff so that it will last."

In Jeremiah, the same word in Hebrew is used for chaff.

Exodus 5:7

לֹא תֹֽאסִפוּן לָתֵת תֶּבֶן לָעָם לִלְבֹּן הַלְּבֵנִים כִּתְמוֹל שִׁלְשֹׁם הֵם יֵֽלְכוּ וְקֹֽשְׁשׁוּ לָהֶם תֶּֽבֶן׃

You shall no more give the people straw (תֶּֽבֶן) to make bricks, as till now; let them go and gather straw (תֶּֽבֶן) for themselves.

Jeremiah 23:28

הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר־אִתּוֹ חֲלוֹם יְסַפֵּר חֲלוֹם וַֽאֲשֶׁר דְּבָרִי אִתּוֹ יְדַבֵּר דְּבָרִי אֱמֶת מַה־לַתֶּבֶן אֶת־הַבָּר נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה׃

The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he who has my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff (תֶּֽבֶן) to the wheat? says the Lord.
Good point. But the problem remains that only 1 percent chaff required for making Egyptian mud bricks.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Good point. But the problem remains that only 1 percent chaff required for making Egyptian mud bricks.

Why is that a problem? Isn't thie question: "How can this be in Egypt? They didn't have enough materials to make so many bricks?"
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Usually this is the type of story where a trickster, divine or otherwise, uses miracles or just cheats to get things done. If only the Hebrews knew someone who could do either.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Why is that a problem? Isn't thie question: "How can this be in Egypt? They didn't have enough materials to make so many bricks?"
That is THE problem. They had straw or chaff aplenty. But they did not make burnt bricks. So the biblical does not match if we consider the Hebrews to make burnt bricks as indicated in conflict over straw.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Why is that a problem? Isn't thie question: "How can this be in Egypt? They didn't have enough materials to make so many bricks?"
That is THE problem. They had straw or chaff aplenty. But they did not make burnt bricks. So the biblical does not match if we consider the Hebrews to make burnt bricks as indicated in conflict over straw.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That is THE problem. They had straw or chaff aplenty. But they did not make burnt bricks. So the biblical does not match if we consider the Hebrews to make burnt bricks as indicated in conflict over straw.

Oh! No problem. It wasn't a lack of materials, it was a lack of people-power and time. If you read the story, the reason for the decree to gather their own stubble and straw was because they were considered to be idle. They were not working long enough. It doesn't say they didn't make the bricks. They were accused of being lazy and wanting to go and serve God. So they were given a task to completely use up all their time. But they didn't have the people and the time to complete all the bricks as they did previously.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Usually this is the type of story where a trickster, divine or otherwise, uses miracles or just cheats to get things done. If only the Hebrews knew someone who could do either.

No way! You know what people say about us, Jews. Can you imagine how much worse it would be if we had help from a divine trickster?
 

River Sea

Active Member
The Hebrew word there is Tevel. It could be either straw or chaff or a mixture. Both function the same when making mud bricks.


Tevel: Tevel is produce which has not had the Terumah and Maaser tithes separated from it, hence the food is deemed forbidden to eat until these required tithes are taken from it.

Does that sound like Tevel?


Look at this: there was an ancient Indus civilization from 2500 to 1500 B.C.; how was the land different from Egypt compared to the Indus?

One of the most significant and impressive archaeological achievements of the twentieth century centers around the discovery of the ancient Indus civilization which probably flourished from about 2500 to 1500 B.C., and extended over a vast territory from the present Pakistan-Iran border to the foot of the Himalayas and to the Gulf of Cambay.

Much of the material culture of this civilization is now known: the well-planned streets and structures of its cities and towns; its tools and implements of stone and metal; its pottery and vases; its beads and bangles; its stone sculptures and terracotta figurines. On the other hand, but little is known of the social, political, religious, and intellectual life of the ancient Indus people, and that little is based on conjecture and surmise. And practically nothing at all is known of its ethnic and linguistic affiliations; indeed the very name of this ancient Indus land is still a mystery.

To be sure, the Indus people did have a well-developed system of writing consisting of some four hundred pictographic signs with conventionalized syllabic values. Moreover, since the reading and writing of this script had to be studied and learned by budding scribes, there is every reason to assume that there were schools scattered throughout the land with a formal system of education. But the inscriptions recovered to date consist of very brief notations on steatite seals, clay sealings, pottery stamps, and small thin copper plates; usually they contain no more than half a dozen signs, and the longest has less than twenty.

There is some likelihood that these inscriptions record the names of the individuals and places, and if so, they could be most revealing for the ethnic origin of the Indus people. but as of today not a single sign of the Indus script has been deciphered and read satisfactorily, and until some bilinguals are discovered, the available Indus inscriptions will probably remain a closed “book.”

Seals_Lothal_Mohenjo-Daro.jpg

Seals excavated at Lothal, with same script as Mohen-daro

There is, however, one possible source of significant information about the Indus civilization which is still untapped: the inscriptions of Sumer, approximately six hundred miles to the west of the mouth of the Indus and separated from the Indus land by the Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf.

That there was considerable commercial trade between the two countries is proved beyond reasonable doubt by some thirty Indus seals which have actually been excavated in Sumer—and no doubt hundreds more are still lying buried in the Sumerian ruins—and which must have been brought there in one way or another from their land of origin.

There is, therefore, good reason to conclude that the Sumerians had known the name of the Indus land as well as some of its more important features and characteristics, and that some of the innumerable Sumerian texts might turn out to be highly informative in this respect.

With this in mind, I searched the Sumerian literary works for possible clues and came up with the tentative hypothesis that Dilmun, a land mentioned frequently in the Sumerian texts and glorified in Sumerian myth, may turn out to be the Indus land or at least some part of it. According to a long-known Sumerian “Flood” -story, Dilmun, the land to which Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah, was transported to live as an immortal among the gods, is “the place where the sun rises,” and was therefore located somewhere to the east of Sumer.

In another Sumerian text, Dilmun is described as a blessed, prosperous land dotted with “great dwellings,” to which the countries of the entire civilized world known to the Sumerians, brought their goods and wares. A number of cuneiform economic documents excavated by the late Leonard Woolley at Ur–Biblical Ur of the Chaldees–one of the most important cities of Sumer, speak of ivory, and objects made of ivory, as being imported from Dilmun to Ur.

The only rich, important land east of Sumer which could be the source of ivory, was that of the ancient Indus civilization, hence it seems not unreasonable to infer that the latter must be identical with Dilmun.

Continued

The Indus Civilization and Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land | Expedition Magazine
Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land
By: Samuel Noah Kramer pdf_button.png View PDF
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
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