where are the differences between Anti-theistic and Atheistic

[LuisDantas]

Wanna bet?

Yep, any time.

There are plenty of holes in it too. Just because it debates against mythic belief systems doesn't make it impervious to higher forms of scrutiny. It's like saying a teenager is invincible because he can beat up on a grade schooler. That's all good and fine until some college kid comes along who knows better.


I would say its very well founded, and sauce for the goose is indeed sauce for the gander.


Anti-theism is generally understood as an activist atheism against religion. In this sense, it's like those who come to your door with Bibles in their hands trying to sell you on their beliefs. Both trouble me inasmuch as they're pretty much the same thing.

I wish I knew why you say such things. The truth is, I do not.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Okay. It's your choice .

Excuse me, are you egging me on? You are more devious than I though. I am gonna have my eyes on you from now on

 

[Chakra]

Excuse me, are you egging me on? You are more devious than I though. I am gonna have my eyes on you from now on

No, that is not my intention. I just didn't want to make it seem that I was trying to force it on you. Looks like I failed.

 

[Sha'irullah]

No, that is not my intention. I just didn't want to make it seem that I was trying to force it on you. Looks like I failed.

I may do it but not now. I have 4 professors who want my soul, spline, heart and buttocks so I am eyeball high in papers

 

[LuisDantas]

namaskaram Luis ji

Namaskaram.

excuse me asking such a direct question , ...but Why ? .....what makes the Anti-theist so sure of his position that he feels that he can decide what is best for others ?

Everyone has to decide at some point what we believe to be best for others, although that may be understandably troubling for many people under many circunstances.

I don't think anti-theists are any different from anyone else in this regard.

and what makes him feel that he is in a position to impose his veiw on others ?

Do we have such a feeling? That is news to me.

but on whos autority do you take anothers beleifs to be missguided ???

On the authority of being people who live in societies that have to deal with the consequences of those beliefs, which is plenty enough IMO.

There is a responsibility in belief, and there is a responsibility of choosing to manifest about beliefs or to fail to.

You make it appear a whole lot more serious and consequential that it really is, though. At the end of the day it is just a disagreement about which beliefs it is worth having.

but what bothers me is what appears to a theist to be at times an agressive attack .

I thank you for this extremely honest way of expressing your feelings. Because I must say that while agressive attacks may indeed occur, they seem to be most often be a matter of perception as opposed to fact. There are many people who still feel offended by even the open admission that we are atheists and do not feel shame for that.

I guess it takes time for people to accept differences.

I dont think any religion minds discussion or minds another sect holding mildly differering veiwpoints but what is so distructive is this attempt to convert whether it comes from a Christian , a Muslim or an Anti theist .

I have to wonder what you are calling attempts to convert. Anti-theists can't very well claim to have divine mandates to threaten you with hellfire or anything, after all. And far as I can tell, there are no attempts at enforcing aggressive anti-theistic laws or anything similar, either. I would be shocked and dismayed if there were. But above all, I would be very surprised.

Maybe it is the open, honest admission that we think you should reconsider belief in deities that shock you out of proportion?

Anti-theism is not just a refusal of Theism , it seems to be a an assault on Theism

How does that work?

Give me some hints on how I could recognize a situation that happens to be an assault on Theism. Do we have the power to take your belief out of you somehow?

Or are you talking about something else instead? I truly don't know.

this is an interesting point , am I to assume that you consider a god to be super natural ?

Yes, I do. It is very difficult to define "god" or "deity" in anything resembling a consensual way, but one of the most reliable attributes of the concept seems to be that it is transcendental to, at the very least, human parameters.

You are welcome to present another understanding of the concept if you feel this one to be mistaken, of course. I'm genuinely curious about what it could be.

agreed that one ought to speak out against cults which go against the religious principles of the traditions that they are closely affiliated to , after all I just spoke out against Shree Bhagavan Rajneesh , because he teaches what many outsiders would take for yogic principles yet what he teaches actualy goes against both Hindu and Buddhist principles and therefore stands to both disscredit the traditions which he loosly bases his teacings upon and stands to seriously delude his followers , ....however I feel it is up to the traditions that the cult most closely models it self upon to disclose the offender as a fraud , ...I forinstance can hardly speak out against a dubious Christian sect as I do not have enough experience to speak out on such a subject .

I don't so much disagree with you on this matter as I think that there is no clear "correct" approach. It is never truly safe to judge others or to speak our minds.

But safety is not always a deciding factor, either. Loving and caring for people often means daring to be wrong and finding out how and why if need be,

We should not fear acting in good faith yet without perfect certainty, as long as our desire to take responsibility and to learn better whenever possible is sincere.

in such a way I am not sure that a non beleiver can speak out about beieiff as he has no experience of it .

That is over-valuing the differences quite a lot, IMO. Belief is just belief. We are not made of different substance or anything.

And quite frankly, how much can those beliefs actually matter? There are controversies about whether Jesus is a man or an aspect of God, about whether it is possible for a Shatria to be reincarnated as a Brahmin, and that is without deciding whether Jesus, Krishna and the Kami of Shinto (to mention just three divergent beliefs out of the top of my mind) can even remotely be all legitimate beliefs in the first place.

Maybe you are indeed sure that all believers have something in common that we atheists or anti-theists literally can not understand or have not experienced.

I can however say with all honesty that I find such certainty exceedingly odd.

and it must be said that a lack of experience is hardly sufficient to qualify anyone to pass judgement on another .

Lack of experience is rarely an advantage, and hardly ever a qualification to judge others. I hope you don't think I implied otherwise.

All the same, it is not at all rare for people to have the moral need to pass judgement anyway. Very few of us are quite that insulated from other people, and it is not even people that attaining such isolation would be defensable in the first place.

We have to live as people and accept our so very human needs and duties. Among them, that of having opinions and dealing honestly with them, for good and worse.

Far as I know, that is just as true for theists as for atheists and anti-theists.

Again, feel free to disagree and to tell me why you do. It would be very exciting to learn a good argument in disagreement on this matter!

to be Honest theists on the whole do not dissrespect Science

Statistically, that is mainly true. But not a very good reason to overlook the rather grave choices of the minority - still very sizeable and often alarmingly unchallenged - that does.

we simply feel that it has its limitations ,

Of course it does, but that is rarely the actual issue.

prehaps we are not so totaly preocupied with the material world ,

In that case, one has to assume you have little in the way of grounds for possible conflict with anti-theism.

we accknowledge its presence but also realise its temporary nature , ...it is simply that the Theist sees beyond material nature and cares about things on a very different level , knowing there to be more than material nature alone .

If that works for you, by all means go for it. But then I have to wonder, why does anti-theism trouble you at all? I still have little clue.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How can you be a theist (hindu) and an atheist?

I find it very easy and supported by scriptures.

 

[Bunyip]

I find it very easy and supported by scriptures.

Please understand - I am asking because I am interested. Several Hindus have made similar comments, and yet Hiduism is generally defined as theists - so I would love to know more.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav

my only purpose here is to understand what a person really means by adopting the title Anti-theist as opposed to Atheist

Ratiben, my stance is clear. I am an atheist with all sympathies and support for theists. I will term an aggressive atheist as anti-theist.

There are anti-theist in India also attacking Gods and Goddesses of Hinduism. E. V. Ramaswamy Periyar of Dravidar Kazhagam was one such.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Please understand - I am asking because I am interested. Several Hindus have made similar comments, and yet Hiduism is generally defined as theists - so I would love to know more.

I am sure some Hindus may have said that as I too say all the time. But then, theists make an absolute majority in Hinduism. We are only the fringe.

 

[Koldo]

Sorry, then I don't what you're trying to say. There was a lot about comfort zone. But I'm not clear what that means even.

Just that the comfort that people find on religion often make them become dependent on their religion.
It easily becomes a pillar where people put their emotions.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Sorry to intrude on your conversation but this is a REALLY common remark against anti-theism that is ultra fallacious. You should NEVER say this ever because when you apply it to logic it just sounds moronic (no offense). Your religion is an emotional expression and apart of your beliefs and individuality so I understand why you would take offense to anti-theism but I will explain why this comment which is made by so many is stupid (I mean no offense, again).

if you look at the question which you deem to be stupid , ...it was in reply to a remark made by luis , ....

LuisDantas said: ↑
An atheist does not believe in deities. An anti-theist thinks everyone would be better off not believing in deities. And an Anti-Theist is probably one who tells you so up front.

isnt this tantamount to comunism ?, ....this was Mao's attitude and what made him feel justified in taking over Tibet and to liberate a people who quite frankly didnt want to be liberated nor did they want their monestaries smashed or their books burnt .

Anti-theists are not trying to decide anything for you at all. Anti-theism oppose theism the same way people oppose serial killers. If a person is against something then that means they find it bad and perhaps dangerous. You have a right to think what you like and do what you like but the issue is doing not thinking. When people do religious things such as circumcise babies, kill and mutilate little girls this is why theism is oppose.
Are you not against dictatorships, murderers and thieves? An anti-theist finds this fundamentally no different.

then by this measure you must also support religious freedom for Tibet as in this case it was the anti theist Mao who killed , maimed and enslaved millions of inocent Tibetans and the chinese regeim that even today agressivly tries to oppress their religion ???

In Islamic countries so much evil is done in the name of Allah and in America it is Jesus. Anti-theists often feel that opposing the notion of a god is better because if you remove the authority from a religion you can keep the religion and let it be. You should really hear what people like Daniel Dennet have to say about this ideal.

then what pro abortion stance taken by non christians ? the freedom to selectively kill ?

do not get me wrong I am equaly against some practices F.G.M. , and no I dont agree with stoning either there are practices on both sides which are equaly questionable .

So saying that anti-theists are trying to decide what is best for others is no different than people deciding it is best to to lock away a murderer and I am sure you hold that belief. Anti-theists find theism to be inherently evil and a quick flash on the news support about 80% of anti-theists claims.

considering you feel free to tell me that my remarks are stupid , ....

''Anti-theists find theism to be inherently evil''

I feel equaly free to tell you that this is a particularly ill thought out remark , one I hope you will think better of when you gain a little more human experience in life ,

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Sure, but there is a difference between asking questions and disagreeing compared to telling people that they are wrong.

It might amount to the same thing. What's wrong with challenging beliefs and assumptions? It happens all the time in other areas of human thought, so why do people get so precious about religious belief? If somebody was secure in their beliefs why would they have a problem with those beliefs being challenged?

 

[LuisDantas]

Philotech has a somewhat understanding of anti-theism than I do.

As for comparisons with Maoism and Communism, I would advise avoiding hiper-reductionism. It is dangerous to find an attribute and decide that it is the on deciding factor.

Atheism and anti-theism may find open acceptance mainly in communist regimens, but I honestly think neither is particularly typical of the other.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Every time I go to some cities I start seeing curry shops all over with Sanskrit gibberish written all over it. Probably says "We shall take America".

if you realy think setting up resturaunt constitutes taking over the world , ......then the Italians have allready won , the pitza allready has world domination , ....and by the way pitza's are Italian not american ! ...so that by your standards means that the pope rules the world !!!

I also heard that in Indian there is over a billion Hindus and no Native Americans.
I know what your kind is up to!

if this is what you have heard , and you actualy beleive it then you have just disscredited every word you have ever spoken , ....and you think you can make judgements about what is good for others .....

excuse me while I pick my self up of the floor , sorry I just cant stop laughing , ....
...and no Native Americans. I know what your kind is up to!

if this isnt bigoted I dont know what is ???

Go take your squiggly lines and curry someplace else!

sorry but this is seriously sad !

 

[Pleroma]

“The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”- (Psalm 14:1)

 

[Koldo]

namaskaram



if you realy think setting up resturaunt constitutes taking over the world , ......then the Italians have allready won , the pitza allready has world domination , ....and by the way pitza's are Italian not american ! ...so that by your standards means that the pope rules the world !!!



if this is what you have heard , and you actualy beleive it then you have just disscredited every word you have ever spoken , ....and you think you can make judgements about what is good for others .....

excuse me while I pick my self up of the floor , sorry I just cant stop laughing , ....
...and no Native Americans. I know what your kind is up to!

if this isnt bigoted I dont know what is ???



sorry but this is seriously sad !

I think he was just being facetious.

 

[Apex]

So is being pro-theism bigotry?

Why would it be? Being pro-theism is analogous to being pro-atheism. There is a difference in being "pro" something, and being "anti" something else. You can promote theism or atheism without crossing the line into intolerance towards those of differing beliefs (the definition of bigotry). But once you start promoting ideas that are against (anti) something, that line becomes much harder to distinguish and far easier to cross.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think he was just being facetious.

I sure hope so, because if it wasn't, it would leave most of us speechless at the ignorance and bigotry. For starters, Sanskrit is a liturgical language, and would never be seen on restaurants as he said. Unfortunately, even if he was trying to joke around, there are people out there who choose to remain totally ignorant of many subjects, although still managing to speak as thought hey were world renowned experts on the matter.

 

[Vinayaka]

Everyone has to decide at some point what we believe to be best for others,

This is news to me. What's good for others is what others deem is good for themselves. Who am I to say?

 

[Maya3]

It might amount to the same thing. What's wrong with challenging beliefs and assumptions? It happens all the time in other areas of human thought, so why do people get so precious about religious belief? If somebody was secure in their beliefs why would they have a problem with those beliefs being challenged?

I fully agree. Hindus are not threatened by different beliefs, we usually don´t have the same belief within our own group first of all. It does not bother us.

Maya