where are the differences between Anti-theistic and Atheistic

[Vinayaka]

Religious belief becomes a problem when it's imposed on other people, and that's when people are entitled to object.

Exactly. This applies to non-religious belief as well, as in the Anti-theists being discussed. If someone keeps their views to themselves, it's all fine. Of course, there are extreme cases where an overall judgement is needed, and something done. That's where things get shady.

 

[LuisDantas]

one interesting point raised in the previous thread was that Anti-theists were only Anti Christian in their sentiments

how true would most anti-theists hold this to be ?

Anti-theism is bigotry. Atheism is not.

Is that a definition?

 

[LuisDantas]

So if for example a parent objected because their child was being taught creationism in a school science lesson, would that make them an atheist or an anti-theist?

None, in and of itself. Opposing Creationism (which, again, I would rather call anti-Evolutionism) says nothing about whether one is atheistic or anti-theistic.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think that religion can give people so much, I don´t think it is right to judge what another person believes, I believe that religion gives people a lot of comfort.

As it turns out, that is exactly why I think religion must be judged quite fiercely. There is an inherent responsibility in belief, and all the more so when people rely on it for comfort.

If nothing else, people should be prepared to find out that they are mistaken if it comes to that, and to stop short of deciding what is proper for others out of their own beliefs alone.

People will of course believe what they will. But others should not be expected to simply pay the price for their beliefs without any questioning or recourse.

 

[Koldo]

I think that religion can give people so much, I don´t think it is right to judge what another person believes, I believe that religion gives people a lot of comfort.

This is exactly my main criticism towards religions in general.
This comfort is granted at a price, and rarely it is cheap.

 

[Maya3]

This is exactly my main criticism towards religions in general.
This comfort is granted at a price, and rarely it is cheap.

What price is that?

Maya

 

[Willamena]

An atheist does not believe in deities. An anti-theist thinks everyone would be better off not believing in deities. And an Anti-Theist is probably one who tells you so up front.

This is my understanding as well.

 

[Koldo]

What price is that?

Maya

Dependence on religion.
The very act of questioning and criticizing the religion of choice shakens the structures people have built their comfort zone upon.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is a comfort zone for atheists too. People get accustomed to what they believe, and it all goes in both directions. I can't believe how many times I've thought, "Haven't you looked in a mirror lately?" in the last few days. Each side accuses the other of irrationality, when it just boils down to personal belief based on experiences.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is something to that, Vinayaka.. But as it turns out, theistic belief is vulnerable to forms of abuse that just can't happen in Atheism or anti- theism. The idea of some sort of simetry is appealling, but also unfounded.

At worst, Atheism and anti- theism can simply be disagreed with and ignored, which turns out to be about as good as different theisms usually can expect from each other.

Which is why I fail to understand how come anti-theism troubles anyone at all.

 

[Maya3]

Dependence on religion.
The very act of questioning and criticizing the religion of choice shakens the structures people have built their comfort zone upon.

Sure, but there is a difference between asking questions and disagreeing compared to telling people that they are wrong.
This is one reason why proselytizing is considered harmful in Hinduism.

Everyone,
But, how do we do it when there are some things that really is harmful? What do we do then and still respect different beliefs and viewpoints?

Maya

 

[LuisDantas]

Pretty good question, Maya.

My best answer is that we all must decide how best to balance the risks and attempt to develop proper wisdom to judge constructively.

There is no definite direction that is universally constructively in this matter.

 

[Vinayaka]

Which is why I fail to understand how come anti-theism troubles anyone at all.

It may not cause trouble to an individual on here, and I'm not really up on my history, but it seems to have caused a ton of trouble in places like the Soviet Union and China where Marxist anti-religion ideology saw to it that religion was abolished, and anyone practicing became persecuted, or worse, just killed, in the name of anti-religion.

State atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LuisDantas]

Anti-religion is not anti-theism, though. And neither is all that responsible for those excesses, either.

 

[Quintessence]

Anti-theism is troubling to me for a few reasons.

First, theism is a hugely heterogenous category and it just doesn't make sense to be against all theisms. With how heterogenous theism is, it is difficult to see an anti-theist as anything other than a person who has a limited understanding of theism. Often, I see the anti-theists as folks who had some bad experiences with a subset of theism, then take that hate and anger to an overgeneralized extreme. It is neither well-reasoned nor healthy to be doing that to me.

Second, suggesting everybody would be better off if they were just like me speaks of a desire to control what other people do and think that is troubling. I get that not everybody embraces pluralism as a proper family value, but whenever I see attempts to homogenize cultural diversity, it raises big red flags in my brain. It speaks to a level of arrogance and authoritarianism that I have a really hard time swallowing, even as I recognize that this sort of arrogance is almost universally human and part of all of us to some extent.

Last, and perhaps most importantly, I find it downright disturbing that anyone would be against expressions of value, wonder, and sacredness that bring so much positive influence to human lives and cultures. Do conflicts over what we value and find sacred pose significant challenges for human cultures? Of course they do. But to let this so completely overshadow the positives and try to rip a beautiful source of meaning out of someone else's life is, well... disgusting.

And, obviously, as a theist, I'm going to feel personally threatened by anybody who wants to wipe me or my ideas off the face of the planet. Call it a survival instinct. I'd hardly blame an atheist for having the same reaction to anti-atheism. Come to think of it, I have pretty much the same problems with anti-atheism that I do with anti-theism. Both smack a ridiculously heterogenous category, are much too authoritarian, and aim to destroy sources of meaning in people's lives. Both are equally troubling to me, and both speak of intolerance and bigotry to me.

 

[Koldo]

There is a comfort zone for atheists too. People get accustomed to what they believe, and it all goes in both directions. I can't believe how many times I've thought, "Haven't you looked in a mirror lately?" in the last few days. Each side accuses the other of irrationality, when it just boils down to personal belief based on experiences.

What you are talking about is just one facet of the comfort zone.
I was getting way beyond that point. I was talking about the solace that religion provides.
Eventually people get so emotionally invested on their religions that they can't let go of it, at least not without suffering.

 

[Koldo]

Sure, but there is a difference between asking questions and disagreeing compared to telling people that they are wrong.
This is one reason why proselytizing is considered harmful in Hinduism.

I wasn't talking just about others questioning and criticizing someone else's religion, but also about people doing that by themselves.
Outright rejecting anything that challenges your religion without even pondering about it, or rather just accepting any proposed explanation no matter how unlikely, is just a natural consequence of this reliance on religion.

Comfort is so important to us that we are generally unwilling to sacrifice it.
You might have noticed it already but, as a rule of thumb, people won't change their strongly held beliefs, no matter how unreasonable they are, unless they themselves are unsatisfied ( uncomfortable ) with them.

Everyone,
But, how do we do it when there are some things that really is harmful? What do we do then and still respect different beliefs and viewpoints?

Maya

Truth to be told, I don't respect beliefs and viewpoints. I don't think these things are worthy of respect. But since I don't think of myself as the one holding only true beliefs, I tend to stay silent most of the time. After all, I do respect your right to have beliefs.

 

[Vinayaka]

What you are talking about is just one facet of the comfort zone.
I was getting way beyond that point. I was talking about the solace that religion provides.
Eventually people get so emotionally invested on their religions that they can't let go of it, at least not without suffering.

What do you actually know about any particular religion, or are you putting them all together? They're not all the same you know. For example, I've never really thought of my faith as a place of solace, but more as a place to explore.

 

[Koldo]

What do you actually know about any particular religion, or are you putting them all together?

I am speaking about religions in general.
Not intended to apply to all religions, just to most ( at this time and age ).

They're not all the same you know. For example, I've never really thought of my faith as a place of solace, but more as a place to explore.

Have you merely never thought of it as place of solace, or has it never been a place of solace?

 

[Vinayaka]

Koldo, one of the problems some of us have is that generalisation. For Hindus in particular, we're often faced with what I would term false accusations based on other's notions of what religion is. It's understandable, given what a person may get exposed to. My own brother, an atheist, won't even give me the light of day, as his experiences with religion (not Hinduism - he has no experiences with Hinduism) have been so negative, so he can't get as far as even having a simple discussion, so powerful is the anti-religion in him.

Yes, I suppose I do get some solace out of my daily puja, and meditation. But that's not the primary purpose. I'd get more solace out of going for a walk in a park. In fact, it's more of a challenge that solace, because sadhana and meditation are supposed to bring you face to face with your own subconscious mind ... with the goal of 'cleaning' it, so in the end you become a better person.

I honestly think that atheism and dharmic religions have more in common then dharmic religions and Abrahamic religions.