Where Are All The British Conservatives?

[England my lionheart]

I'm afraid this hatchet will not be buried. It's too deep for that. I completely agree we should all now recognise we are where we are, and so we have to recognise the situation and get on with it, pragmatically. But do not imagine it will cease to be a profound dividing line in British politics.

It's not just trade and economics, though that alone may be enough to keep the issue alive for a decade at least. It also affects people's sense of their identity. Just look at the Northern Ireland Protocol. That one will keep coming round, like the ghoul on the ghost train..WOOHOO... every few months, because the Unionists feel it threatens their identity.

Messing with people's identity is a recipe for long-lasting friction and resentment.

It will hang around for a long time for sure,the Northern Ireland protocol is the worst part imo,it has been divisive even to the civil war standards,so bitter and people saying incredulous thing like the Lib Dems,it turned into a circus that won’t leave town.

 

[exchemist]

It will hang around for a long time for sure,the Northern Ireland protocol is the worst part imo,it has been divisive even to the civil war standards,so bitter and people saying incredulous thing like the Lib Dems,it turned into a circus that won’t leave town.

And it can't.

The Good Friday Agreement only worked because both sides of the Irish border were in the EU. The Protocol was carefully and painfully worked out to be the only way to get a somewhat unsatisfactory compromise that satisfied Bozo's demand to be outside all the EU's arrangements, and still allow an open border.

One of many things about the incompetence with which this has been handled that infuriates me is the failure of Bozo et.al. to take Ireland seriously. This arsehole signed an agreement he had no intention of honouring, just so he could claim that he had "got Brexit done". He won an election on the back of that and then immediately tried to re-open the agreement he had just signed. Result? Brexit is not "done" at all, nor will it be the way he and Frostie are carrying on. This is far from the only example of his grotesque incompetence and carelessness, but I'd better stop ranting.

 

[SomeRandom]

Out of curiosity, as a non Brit, can I ask what the whole deal is with Brexit?
@Brickjectivity @Rival @9-10ths_Penguin ??

I have seen lamentations over leaving the EU (from both sides of the political aisle.) And I have seen lamentations over staying (again from both sides of the political aisle.)

But I’ve also heard of “real harm” from both sides. I’m afraid I’m not clued in into the scenario. Sorry, merely curious.

As to why there’s not a lot of Conservatives/conservatives Brits on here. That well could be just because this is a niche website. So the pool is already going to be small from the offset. Of those from the pool I’d imagine you’d likely get more left leaning folks by default, since it is a bit of adventure and random happenstance to even get here. And well I mean no offence but Conservatives tend to hang out on Facebook and alternative social media sites these days. Yes even outside the US.

But that’s just speculation.
Maybe there are conservative British folks on here who are just more private about their politics and wish to focus on religious discussion. I mean the website is titled religious forums after all

 

[Brickjectivity]

Out of curiosity, as a non Brit, can I ask what the whole deal is with Brexit?

I'm Amuricin.

 

[England my lionheart]

And it can't.

The Good Friday Agreement only worked because both sides of the Irish border were in the EU. The Protocol was carefully and painfully worked out to be the only way to get a somewhat unsatisfactory compromise that satisfied Bozo's demand to be outside all the EU's arrangements, and still allow an open border.

One of many things about the incompetence with which this has been handled that infuriates me is the failure of Bozo et.al. to take Ireland seriously. This arsehole signed an agreement he had no intention of honouring, just so he could claim that he had "got Brexit done". He won an election on the back of that and then immediately tried to re-open the agreement he had just signed. Result? Brexit is not "done" at all, nor will it be the way he and Frostie are carrying on. This is far from the only example of his grotesque incompetence and carelessness, but I'd better stop ranting.

Boris is a tool in your toolbox that you will only use once in your lifetime,im not expecting him to be around too much longer.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm Amuricin.

Oh, i thought that was a Merkin

 

[Brickjectivity]

Oh, i thought that was a Merkin

"Merkin (merfolk-kin) is a type of otherkin in which they identify as merfolk, or are a reincarnation of one." --https://otherkin.fandom.com/wiki/Merkin

 

[Laika]

Out of curiosity, as a non Brit, can I ask what the whole deal is with Brexit?
@Brickjectivity @Rival @9-10ths_Penguin ??

I have seen lamentations over leaving the EU (from both sides of the political aisle.) And I have seen lamentations over staying (again from both sides of the political aisle.)

But I’ve also heard of “real harm” from both sides. I’m afraid I’m not clued in into the scenario. Sorry, merely curious.

As to why there’s not a lot of Conservatives/conservatives Brits on here. That well could be just because this is a niche website. So the pool is already going to be small from the offset. Of those from the pool I’d imagine you’d likely get more left leaning folks by default, since it is a bit of adventure and random happenstance to even get here. And well I mean no offence but Conservatives tend to hang out on Facebook and alternative social media sites these days. Yes even outside the US.

But that’s just speculation.
Maybe there are conservative British folks on here who are just more private about their politics and wish to focus on religious discussion. I mean the website is titled religious forums after all

A little bit of history may help.

After world war one countries in Europe became more nationalist and economically protectionist, putting up tariffs barriers on each other. Germany had special issues because it was blamed for world war one and forced to pay reparations that seriously hurt its economy and had to borrow money from the USA to pay for it. When the wall street crash happened, Germany couldn’t repay its loans to the US and was hit really badly during the great depression. The mass unemployment in Germany helped Hitler into power and the wider global impacts destabilised Europe as a continent with the far right and far left destroying democracies. This is how we got world war two.

When the Nazis were finally defeated, Europe basically didn’t want to go through that all again. As the Cold War geared up, America sent us a massive bail out with the Marshall plan and NATO was formed to resist the Soviets. The European Economic Community (EEC) was our way of making sure Europe worked together so we didn’t have another war or a major economic crisis. Ensuring we had prosperity was also a way for democracies to protect each other from fascism and communism.

Britain held back and only joined the EEC in the 1970’s. We were losing what remained of our Empire and was going through a pretty turbulent period of economic crisis and industrial unrest. So a common market to sell our goods and to create prosperity was a really attractive idea.

Around the time when communism fell, the EEC became the European Union which explicitly sought to create common laws to regulate a common market- so countries lose some sovereignty over what laws they can create. The Euro was launched as a single currency as a step towards greater economic integration and eastern European countries who were transitioning from central planning to free market capitalism, joined the EU hoping to share in the west’s prosperity. Many eastern European immigrants came to the UK offering cheap unskilled labour in hope of a better life but this caused racial tensions in some communities.

On top of this is the legacy of the 1980’s in Britain where whole industries were wiped out and many communities devastated economically. Some areas recovered, whilst others didn’t as much. So (at least the perception of) having loads of immigrants come here whilst many brits are struggling and unable to get decent job opportunities or even welfare for themselves wasn’t great. Equally, the EU is a free trade bloc that limits governments ability to intervene in their economies to ensure they can integrate. So the UK had a decade of austerity partly because of EU fiscal rules limiting government spending, making it harder for people to cope. You then have a powderkeg of racial tensions and economic hardship and many people blamed immigrants (and thus the EU because of free movement).

Alot of the heat in the Brexit debate is therefore indirectly a challenge to the model of post-war reconstruction and the lessons drawn in 1945 that nationalism threatens democracies and leads to racism, economic crisis and war. The “Remain” side emphasises the dangers of taking the economic nationalist route, whilst the “Leave” side points towards a range of grievances that the EU played at least some role in contributing to but also won’t be able to solve- immigration being the biggest one. Based on promises we won’t have more immigration, won’t have to accept EU laws and regulations and could have free trade outside the EU, we then have Brexit.

[Edit:] When the results came in support for Brexit was largely an English issue, with the Scots and Northern Irish (and many of the Welsh) wanting to stay in the EU. Central London voted Remain but that's because it's where all the money and banking is and free trade is good for business. Many in Scotland and Wales want to leave the UK basically because England is Tory and they hate Tories and leaving the EU is just another grievance inflicting on them by Tory/English/British rule. Finally, being in the EU was for northern Ireland the best of both worlds- they were governed by Westminster, whilst being able to have an open border with the south as if Ireland were a single country. Closing the Irish border and reminding Northern Ireland they are still part of the UK is a pretty quick way to rekindling decades of terrorism and centuries of hatred and conflict. So, we don't want to do that either.

 

[HonestJoe]

Vote Remain or you're a bigot!

I heard a lot of that.

No different to "Vote Leave or you're a traitor!". As I said, both sides were as bad as each other.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The argument continues because, for what ever reason, none of the promised benefits of Brexit have come to pass.

While large numbers of vital skilled European workers have gone home, and rather more desperate migrants have come to the UK.

Trade has become log jammed, with nothing replacing lost EU trade.

We have been divorced from most scientific and other major European cooperative projects. Even ones where we had been the lead partner.

There is nothing yet to show on the plus side.

Now that Merkel has lost power in Germany and is being replaced by far less UK supportive leaders, life and trade will become even more difficult.

 

[Secret Chief]

The argument continues because, for what ever reason, none of the promised benefits of Brexit have come to pass.

While large numbers of vital skilled European workers have gone home, and rather more desperate migrants have come to the UK.

Trade has become log jammed, with nothing replacing lost EU trade.

We have been divorced from most scientific and other major European cooperative projects. Even ones where we had been the lead partner.

There is nothing yet to show on the plus side.

Now that Merkel has lost power in Germany and is being replaced by far less UK supportive leaders, life and trade will become even more difficult.

Yes yes yes but we've got our sovereignty back. And throwing Northern Ireland under the bus is a price worth paying.

 

[Erebus]

I mentioned in another thread that RF feels swamped by Remainers. Most of the Brits on here are pro-EU. I don't mind that; have your own opinions - but why is this place specifically housing so many? Where are all the British Brexiteers on here? I'm not looking for a Brexit argument; I want to know where all the British conservatives are. And while were at it, where are all the British crazy religious fundies like me? I've put this in political debates because it seems more a political issue to me.

Sometimes it's incredibly lonely and frustrating being on here, trying to form a community, when it feels everyone is mocking you because of the way you voted.

CONSERVATIVE BRITS, WHERE ARE YOU?

*Yells into the obvious void*

I can only go by personal experience here but the conservatives I know just aren't interested in debating religion. They're either apathetic towards it or just take the view that it's traditional and therefore basically okay. Whether they're personally religious or not, it's not a topic that they feel the need to delve into. Some of them don't like Muslims but that tends to be more of an immigration issue than a religious one to them. None of them would be interested in joining a forum that's primarily focused on debating/discussing religious topics.

They are interested in politics and will happily talk about it online. They stick to Facebook as far as I'm aware though. That said, it's perfectly possible they post on political forums too and I just don't know about it.

To be fair, a lot of the lefties are apathetic about religion too. However, those who are interested in it tend to be much more likely to want a debate (I'm one of them).

As I say, this is just my personal experience so I can't say how much that applies to British conservatives in general. If they're at all representative though, it may go some way to explaining the relative lack of conservative Brits here.


As for Brexit, I've said before that while I voted remain, I may well have voted leave if we had a different political climate. I had absolutely no faith in the Conservative party to handle Brexit in a way that would benefit average citizens. However, I don't personally begrudge Brexit voters, providing they did their best to understand the issue and voted based on what they felt was best for everybody.

Again going back to people I know personally, the Brexit voters aren't really interested in debating Brexit. They're actually much more inclined to take the opposite view; that there shouldn't even be a debate anymore.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

best for everybody.

Again going back to people I know personally, the Brexit voters aren't really interested in debating Brexit. They're actually much more inclined to take the opposite view; that there shouldn't even be a debate anymore.

That is of course the Usual position of people who have won a battle, but perhaps not the war.

In this case the situation is rumbling on, perhaps because the results were so regional in nature.

 

[exchemist]

That is of course the Usual position of people who have won a battle, but perhaps not the war.

In this case the situation is rumbling on, perhaps because the results were so regional in nature.

Not just that. The consequences of Brexit will be issues in trade, economics and politics for years to come.

 

[England my lionheart]

The argument continues because, for what ever reason, none of the promised benefits of Brexit have come to pass.

While large numbers of vital skilled European workers have gone home, and rather more desperate migrants have come to the UK.

Trade has become log jammed, with nothing replacing lost EU trade.

We have been divorced from most scientific and other major European cooperative projects. Even ones where we had been the lead partner.

There is nothing yet to show on the plus side.

Now that Merkel has lost power in Germany and is being replaced by far less UK supportive leaders, life and trade will become even more difficult.

I reckon that there’s more pressing worries for Europe,putin putting 175000 troops on its borders,the word is that he’s coming in February.

 

[exchemist]

I reckon that there’s more pressing worries for Europe,putin putting 175000 troops on its borders,the word is that he’s coming in February.

True. EU leaders don't care much about the UK issue much any more. They have far more pressing concerns.

Putin may want to get Ukraine back, and to be honest, I don't think we should strain every sinew to stop him. Throughout most of history, Ukraine has been an integral part of Russia. In fact, my understanding is it is only separate now as an accidental result of a gesture Krushchev made when he was premier. He was from Ukraine and decided to elevate it to its own SSR status. When the USSR collapsed, that meant it went its own way - against the current of history. It's certainly not sensible for us or the EU getting into a physical war over it. Though sanctions, to show disapproval of undemocratic land-grabs, would be appropriate.

 

[England my lionheart]

True. EU leaders don't care much about the UK issue much any more. They have far more pressing concerns.

Putin may want to get Ukraine back, and to be honest, I don't think we should strain every sinew to stop him. Throughout most of history, Ukraine has been an integral part of Russia. In fact, my understanding is it is only separate now as an accidental result of a gesture Krushchev made when he was premier. He was from Ukraine and decided to elevate it to its own SSR status. When the USSR collapsed, that meant it went its own way - against the current of history. It's certainly not sensible for us or the EU getting into a physical war over it. Though sanctions, to show disapproval of undemocratic land-grabs, would be appropriate.

And sanctions is what the response will be,I think putin and Biden were supposed to FaceTime today,Biden says he will make it very difficult for Russia,im assuming sanctions is what he means.

Putin is worried that nato bases are built in Ukraine,this is seen as threatening by Russia and all the posturing and troops is to give him options,he’s also angry at turkey as seperatives are using Turkish drones,hopefully sanctions will suffice for now but I don’t think it will go away.

 

[exchemist]

And sanctions is what the response will be,I think putin and Biden were supposed to FaceTime today,Biden says he will make it very difficult for Russia,im assuming sanctions is what he means.

Putin is worried that nato bases are built in Ukraine,this is seen as threatening by Russia and all the posturing and troops is to give him options,he’s also angry at turkey as seperatives are using Turkish drones,hopefully sanctions will suffice for now but I don’t think it will go away.

Agreed. I think it would be a catastrophic error to admit Ukraine to NATO. Ukraine should be a non-aligned buffer state, in order to keep everyone calm. Actually I don't think there is any intention to admit Ukraine.

They might work on joining the EU, I suppose, but that's different though to be honest I think the EU would be fools to admit more flaky E European states with a flaky track record of democracy. Poland and Hungary are quite bad enough as it is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

CONSERVATIVE BRITS, WHERE ARE YOU?

The Celts here farted in their general direction.

 

[England my lionheart]

No different to "Vote Leave or you're a traitor!". As I said, both sides were as bad as each other.

Oh I think “only educated people should vote” or “the elderly shouldn’t vote” that came from the remain side much worse.