When you want to know the truth.

[Unveiled Artist]

I find answers pop up when I'm not looking for them. I may have a concern or just something simple as wanting food but nothing to eat. A neighbor all of the sudden knocks at my door with food. My elder neighbors in this complex are very charitable.

The more meaningful the events, the more I understand what people mean by the term "god." Just in this case there's no "final answer." Nothing someone gives me to take away pain. Gradually one stops asking bug questions, and if you're away of your present state you'll recognize what "answers" come to you. Believers call them blessings.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is not a sign that you Understand in daily life a verifiable answer to you personally?
Let say you had asked for guidance to realize the answer and instead of dumping in front of you, the answer was given to you in daily life, example in a situation you realized that this episode you experience is the answer to what had asked for?

Is that not a good enough answer?

How would I differentiate the following two options:
- I figured it out on my own

- some invisible, undetectable entity planted the idea in my head in undetectable ways



In my job, I am solving problems all the time. As a software engineer, I come accross design problems all the time. Sometimes they are hard to solve. I'ld think and think and nothing.
Then I'ld clear my mind by going to play the drums.

And sometimes, then an idea just spontaneously pops in my head which leads me to solutions.

It seems to me that people like you attribute such ideas then to some undetectable entity who's telepathically communicating this to you in undetectable ways.

I see no reason to do that.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How would I differentiate the following two options:
- I figured it out on my own

- some invisible, undetectable entity planted the idea in my head in undetectable ways

Well my example was if you saw something in this physical world that gave the answer to a religioues question you had asked for guidance to know.

But to answer your question, you could take it as a sign from God, but you would not know at exact time the realization happend, so it would be wise to not rule out an answer from god.

But i know you are a super duper atheists so maybe my example was not fruitful

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find answers pop up when I'm not looking for them. I may have a concern or just something simple as wanting food but nothing to eat. A neighbor all of the sudden knocks at my door with food. My elder neighbors in this complex are very charitable.

Yep. And this is a psychological thing. It falls under the concept of "count the hits, ignore the misses".
It's what con-artist who claim to be able to talk to the dead exploit as well.

James Randi ones scrutinized such a "reading". The "victim" claimed that it was amazing how well the "reader" scored in knowing about his deceased loved one.
Randi asked him how many names the "reader" mentioned before she hit the name of his loved one.
His answer was "4 or 5". In reality, it was 37.

Or like when the other day I had a sudden appetite for Prince biscuits from Lu. And sure enough, a couple minutes later I saw a commercial for them and I remember that. In actuality, those commercials are aired almost daily, and multiple times a day. But just like all other commercials that don't interest me at that time, it doesn't register in my brain. I only remember the one commercial, because it just happened to coincide with my thoughts at that moment. There's no "deeper meaning" to it. It's just bias and our human tendency to infuse agency and meaning in otherwise random events.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well my example was if you saw something in this physical world that gave the answer to a religioues question you had asked for guidance to know.

Well, I don't have religious questions....

But I'ld imagine it would be similar to my previous post (nr 64). Your brain will register things that are already on your mind and you'ld have a tendency to infuse special meaning in said event / observation.

But it's just psychological bias.

But to answer your question, you could take it as a sign from God, but you would not know at exact time the realization happend, so it would be wise to not rule out an answer from god.

Why god? Why not the drum fairies? Or undetectable unicorns? Or demons? Or ghosts?

Why not simply go for the obvious answer and the one that doesn't actually require any of such extra-ordinary assumptions? That answer being: YOU figured it out by yourself.

But i know you are a super duper atheists so maybe my example was not fruitful

I prefer "super duper rationalist" though. ;-)

I have about as much incentive to attribute things to gods as I do attributing them to ghosts or unicorns.
I have no reason to at all. The human brain is very much capable of figuring things out. There's no need to appeal to any unfalsifiable super-undetectable entities at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yep. And this is a psychological thing. It falls under the concept of "count the hits, ignore the misses".
It's what con-artist who claim to be able to talk to the dead exploit as well.

James Randi ones scrutinized such a "reading". The "victim" claimed that it was amazing how well the "reader" scored in knowing about his deceased loved one.
Randi asked him how many names the "reader" mentioned before she hit the name of his loved one.
His answer was "4 or 5". In reality, it was 37.

Or like when the other day I had a sudden appetite for Prince biscuits from Lu. And sure enough, a couple minutes later I saw a commercial for them and I remember that. In actuality, those commercials are aired almost daily, and multiple times a day. But just like all other commercials that don't interest me at that time, it doesn't register in my brain. I only remember the one commercial, because it just happened to coincide with my thoughts at that moment. There's no "deeper meaning" to it. It's just bias and our human tendency to infuse agency and meaning in otherwise random events.

I read.

The difference is some people find meaning in coinsedential and psychological events. Some are indoctrinated in other people's interpretation of answers, others appreciate "answers" (words used in OP) without needing to not pick their validity and confirmed biases etc.

The loved one example may have great meaning for that person who had faith (not knowledge) that he recieved the name of his loved one. That "meaning" is what people say comes from god.

It may have a psychological cause behind it but why invalidate their answer when it gives them appreciation of life etc?

What's wrong with spiritualizing psychological experiences?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I don't have religious questions....

But I'ld imagine it would be similar to my previous post (nr 64). Your brain will register things that are already on your mind and you'ld have a tendency to infuse special meaning in said event / observation.

But it's just psychological bias.



Why god? Why not the drum fairies? Or undetectable unicorns? Or demons? Or ghosts?

Why not simply go for the obvious answer and the one that doesn't actually require any of such extra-ordinary assumptions? That answer being: YOU figured it out by yourself.



I prefer "super duper rationalist" though. ;-)

I have about as much incentive to attribute things to gods as I do attributing them to ghosts or unicorns.
I have no reason to at all. The human brain is very much capable of figuring things out. There's no need to appeal to any unfalsifiable super-undetectable entities at all.

There's nothing wrong with unicorns as a source. If their lives improve why do they need to have no spiritual rationality? (Likewise why do people need to believe to live a good life)

Works both ways. Sounds like you're doing the same as theist just the flip version.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, I don't have religious questions....

But I'ld imagine it would be similar to my previous post (nr 64). Your brain will register things that are already on your mind and you'ld have a tendency to infuse special meaning in said event / observation.

But it's just psychological bias.



Why god? Why not the drum fairies? Or undetectable unicorns? Or demons? Or ghosts?

Why not simply go for the obvious answer and the one that doesn't actually require any of such extra-ordinary assumptions? That answer being: YOU figured it out by yourself.



I prefer "super duper rationalist" though. ;-)

I have about as much incentive to attribute things to gods as I do attributing them to ghosts or unicorns.
I have no reason to at all. The human brain is very much capable of figuring things out. There's no need to appeal to any unfalsifiable super-undetectable entities at all.

You know, this time i honestly like your answer. And your questions back to me.

Why God? That is a question so personal but so well asked in the same time, that you deserve an answer to it.

When i opend my self to the teaching of the Quran i already was a believer in that Allah existed, my entry in to Islam was unortodox in every way because of my past beliefs.
You can say that by accepting Allah as the God in my life i still accept that those other teachings hold their truth for those who follow them. When i accepted Islam in to my life, that is honestly the first time i felt complete. I had found something deeper then before. The teaching resonated with me as a person. So as you see it is a very personal hold belief.

I am not to ask other to believe what i believe. You are free to be an atheist or any other form of belief. That is your path in life.
But i hope we can still discuss belief or any other topic in RF in the future.

You might have made me tick loudly of anger before, but i have no intention to be angry again because you ask me difficult question in the future. Your questions can even make me have to digg deeper in to my faith to give you a truthful answer.

Life is a journey of learning.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I read.

The difference is some people find meaning in coinsedential and psychological events. Some are indoctrinated in other people's interpretation of answers, others appreciate "answers" (words used in OP) without needing to not pick their validity and confirmed biases etc.

The loved one example may have great meaning for that person who had faith (not knowledge) that he recieved the name of his loved one. That "meaning" is what people say comes from god.

It may have a psychological cause behind it but why invalidate their answer when it gives them appreciation of life etc?

What's wrong with spiritualizing psychological experiences?

Well, the short answer is that I care about what is actually true.

In the longer answer, for which I don't have time now, I'ld point out the harm such things oftenly cause and how false hope can be damaging etc. Cherry picking instances where it has a positive effect doesn't negate all the harm and damage such things can cause.

In short, I prefer dealing with the real world as opposed to with a fantasy that promotes the "ignorance is bliss" factor.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There's nothing wrong with unicorns as a source. If their lives improve why do they need to have no spiritual rationality? (Likewise why do people need to believe to live a good life)

Works both ways. Sounds like you're doing the same as theist just the flip version.

What about all the people where such "spirituality" triggers them into making bad decisions and / or are otherwise harmed, or cause harm?

Again, I prefer dealing with the real world. False hope, isn't real hope.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You know, this time i honestly like your answer. And your questions back to me.

Why God? That is a question so personal but so well asked in the same time, that you deserve an answer to it.

When i opend my self to the teaching of the Quran i already was a believer in that Allah existed, my entry in to Islam was unortodox in every way because of my past beliefs.
You can say that by accepting Allah as the God in my life i still accept that those other teachings hold their truth for those who follow them. When i accepted Islam in to my life, that is honestly the first time i felt complete. I had found something deeper then before. The teaching resonated with me as a person. So as you see it is a very personal hold belief.

I am not to ask other to believe what i believe. You are free to be an atheist or any other form of belief. That is your path in life.
But i hope we can still discuss belief or any other topic in RF in the future.

You might have made me tick loudly of anger before, but i have no intention to be angry again because you ask me difficult question in the future. Your questions can even make me have to digg deeper in to my faith to give you a truthful answer.

Life is a journey of learning.

Well, for future reference, anything I say is never to be taken personally.
I realize I can be harsh at times and it's okay to call me on it, but likely I'ld be rather unapologetic about it.
It's not my intention to anger people, but I freely admit that I like to "stir the pot" at times, because I feel like it can illuminate ideas which leads to a discussion and hopefully something can be learned from it (and that goes for other people as well as myself).

Having said that, your answer to "why god?" is exactly what I expected.
And in a nutshell, it is this: "because I already believe that".

;-)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, the short answer is that I care about what is actually true.

In the longer answer, for which I don't have time now, I'ld point out the harm such things oftenly cause and how false hope can be damaging etc. Cherry picking instances where it has a positive effect doesn't negate all the harm and damage such things can cause.

In short, I prefer dealing with the real world as opposed to with a fantasy that promotes the "ignorance is bliss" factor.

It depends on the person not his or her belief. Some people see positive is good and base good behaviors because of these positives. I know others who don't want to and told be she didn't want to hear the negatives of her religion. Who am I to say she's "blind" etc cause that's her truth.

Cherry picking isn't bad when ones behaviors reflect the positive things they pick out. I came across people here of multiple religions who believe and comfortable about their practice or faith they don't question it.

You can take rationality for granted just as the spiritualist. Unicorns. Psychology. God. Deceased loved ones. These don't hurt people in themselves.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, for future reference, anything I say is never to be taken personally.
I realize I can be harsh at times and it's okay to call me on it, but likely I'ld be rather unapologetic about it.
It's not my intention to anger people, but I freely admit that I like to "stir the pot" at times, because I feel like it can illuminate ideas which leads to a discussion and hopefully something can be learned from it (and that goes for other people as well as myself).

Having said that, your answer to "why god?" is exactly what I expected.
And in a nutshell, it is this: "because I already believe that".

;-)

You have stired my pot to overcooking before and thats when i lost a good sense of thinking, that should not been because of your words, but because of my own shortcomings

To be able to believe in God is maybe not for everyone. Some people only accept the physical world they see with their eyes to be true. Thats ok if that is what make you feel complete

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What about all the people where such "spirituality" triggers them into making bad decisions and / or are otherwise harmed, or cause harm?

Again, I prefer dealing with the real world. False hope, isn't real hope.

Are you basing your views of religion off of what people do?

That's the issue right there not the religion itself. Of course people use god to justify bad behavior. That doesn't mean the belief is bad. Some see bad. Some see good. As long as they live good lives and healthy behavior.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It depends on the person not his or her belief. Some people see positive is good and base good behaviors because of these positives. I know others who don't want to and told be she didn't want to hear the negatives of her religion. Who am I to say she's "blind" etc cause that's her truth.

Cherry picking isn't bad when ones behaviors reflect the positive things they pick out. I came across people here of multiple religions who believe and comfortable about their practice or faith they don't question it.

You can take rationality for granted just as the spiritualist. Unicorns. Psychology. God. Deceased loved ones. These don't hurt people in themselves.

I disagree.


I tend not to look at such things on a case by case basis. It's more about the idea behind it all. The idea of "I only do this when it's positive" makes no sense to me. Because ultimately what this is about, is concerned with epistemology, reasoning, methodology, how to scrutinize things, problem solving, etc in a much more broader and general sense.

The person who thinks this is a valid "approach", will find it valid regardless of outcome.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You have stired my pot to overcooking before

We'll call it even.

To be able to believe in God is maybe not for everyone. Some people only accept the physical world they see with their eyes to be true. Thats ok if that is what make you feel complete

Well, there's lot's of stuff I accept as real, without being able to see it with my eyes (or any other of my senses). Like radiation and magnetism.

However, what makes me feel "complete" is not dependent on my level of knowledge of physical reality.
That has to do with my inner peace. With my friends, my work/private balance, my family, my kids, my personal accomplishments (not talking about money), my ambitions and goals and dreams,... in life.

Although I do like learning. The idea of forever being a student, certainly does add to my sense of completeness. Not the knowledge gained from it, but rather the quest for it. The journey of learning.
Be it a science documentary, or a new sticking pattern on the drums.

I can find much enjoyment in the small things in life.

 

[Spirit of Light]

We'll call it even.



Well, there's lot's of stuff I accept as real, without being able to see it with my eyes (or any other of my senses). Like radiation and magnetism.

However, what makes me feel "complete" is not dependent on my level of knowledge of physical reality.
That has to do with my inner peace. With my friends, my work/private balance, my family, my kids, my personal accomplishments (not talking about money), my ambitions and goals and dreams,... in life.

Although I do like learning. The idea of forever being a student, certainly does add to my sense of completeness. Not the knowledge gained from it, but rather the quest for it. The journey of learning.
Be it a science documentary, or a new sticking pattern on the drums.

I can find much enjoyment in the small things in life.

Good to hear you have found peace in mind too

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you basing your views of religion off of what people do?

I'm basing my views of faith-based beliefs (not just religions) on what those who believe it do as a direct result of that belief, yes. I'm practical that way. Also, I don't see how I have any other choice.

Then there's also the general idea of acting on bad intel. And bad intel = intel that isn't sufficiently demonstrated to be trustworthy. Faith based beliefs certainly fit that definition.

That's the issue right there not the religion itself. Of course people use god to justify bad behavior. That doesn't mean the belief is bad. Some see bad. Some see good. As long as they live good lives and healthy behavior.

Here's the thing with faith-based beliefs: you have no argument against either.

Also, I'm not talking about people who hide behind some dogma or doctrine just to be able to do as they please.

In the broadest sense, I'm talking about people who think they have trustworthy information and act on that information, while the information is faulty and faith based.

Also, with the bad behaviour / bad decisions, I wasn't even thinking about islamic suicide bombers or alike. I'm thinking even only mundane stuff.

Even things as "small" as some guy meeting some girl in some coincidence and believing it was god telling him that that's the girl he should be with. The guy then goes in on it because, hey - if god wants it it must be good, which causes him to break of with a girl he's been seeing, who's actually a much better match for him.


Or a sick person who sees a guru instead of an actual doctor.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree.


I tend not to look at such things on a case by case basis. It's more about the idea behind it all. The idea of "I only do this when it's positive" makes no sense to me. Because ultimately what this is about, is concerned with epistemology, reasoning, methodology, how to scrutinize things, problem solving, etc in a much more broader and general sense.

The person who thinks this is a valid "approach", will find it valid regardless of outcome.

I see it should have positive behavioral outputs. Christians believe death of the flesh leaves to enternal life. So they value blood crucification. Many insofar they make it a centerstone of communion, jesus.

While blood sacrifice is creepy, many people, I won't say all, use this belief to help others. It just depends on the person.

Less on theology and psychology, more focus on the morality of their behaviors not their belief in pink unicorns.

 

[Dawnofhope]

When studying and you come over a verse or verses you can not understand. You turn to Allah for advice, you pray for guidance.
Or as many do. They turn to their fellow believers and ask questions to understand the verses in question

Allah might not give you a clear answer at that moment, but put forth the answer into your life, you experience the answer so you should pay attention in your daily life.

When you ask your fellow believers, they will give you the answer the way they them self understand it, they will not give the answer the way Allah do

What way would you prefere your answer given to you?

Prayer and meditation can led to answers as well as consulting with others. Both methods are valid and both have limitations.