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Featured When Was The Universe Created?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Earthling, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Talk about confused.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    No doubt. But as I pointed out, each day in Genesis 1 is specified to have an evening and morning, which means a literal day, since they're not attributes that weeks, months, years or epochs have.
    Not if you're a Christian. The seventh day is Saturday, as any Jew will remind you. There are several references in Acts to Paul going to the synagogue on the (Jewish) Sabbath, in accordance with the commandment in eg Exodus 20:10. Later Christians changed that, apparently quite early, ignoring the commandment.
     
    #22 blü 2, Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That's right in Genesis 1:1, doesn't say when the Universe or the earth was created nor does it say when the atmosphere/air as being created either.

    But however, we do have a pretty good idea just about how old, the earth maybe, seeing the dinosaur bones dates back to some Millions of years old, That would mean, the earth as being just as old or older, than any 6000 years, as the young earth creationist believe the earth to be.

    So we know the earth is at lease Millions of years old.

    Here's an interesting question
    In Genesis 1:2--"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters"

    Note ( And the earth was without form)
    Note the word ( was )

    The word ( was ) being translated in the Hebrew language in the Strong's concordance #1961-1933, and in the Companion bible.
    Meaning of "was" = become or became )

    Therefore Genesis 1:2, The earth wasn't created without form and void.

    The earth ( become - became ) without form and void.
    So the question is, What happen for the earth to ( become - became ) without form and void?

    God didn't create the earth without form and void, The earth became without form and void,

    So what happened, to the earth that it became without form and void?
    Throughout the bible tells what happened, that the earth became without form and void.
     
    #23 Faithofchristian, Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Not a coherent response.
     
  5. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    It's like saying you sound like a broken record.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Still not a coherent response, and your the broken record avoiding the facts of history and archaeology.

    Sarcasm and insults on your part are your way of dodging reality.
     
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  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    I think we dealt with the subject all it needs to be dealt with. When it comes to the documentary theory you have roughly 200 years of "scholars" saying that someone else wrote the Bible based upon absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Just a bunch of people who can't accept the fact that something was written about long before it happened saying there are stylistic differences that amount to nothing and inconsistent uses of various words actually used throughout the text.

    What's to argue with that? It's complete nonsense and the only people who believe it are the people who want to believe it. Even if I could change their minds, I wouldn't waste my time doing so. Why would I?
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    No you have not dealt with it at all. You simply asserted your belief without evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for authorship of the Pentateuch prior to ~700-800 BCE and even that is sketchy.

    Actually, the documentary hypothesis is not considered completely correct, but only partially identifies the literary sources of the Pentateuch, which is the compilation, editing and redacting from different sources after ~700-800 BCE.. What is found to not supported is the first author of any of the Pentateuch. There is not one shred of text before this and no outside sources that document any of the Pentateuch.

    There is not evidence that the Hebrew language even existed prior to ~800-900 BCE.
     
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  9. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    An evening and morning is only half a 24 hour period. There's also an afternoon and night. At Genesis 2:4 all six days are called 1 day. The seventh day had no morning or evening, and that day continues thousands of years later. (Psalms 95:11 / Hebrews 4:2-10) The morning and evening are symbolic for the time periods when the angels had no idea what was being created and a time when the creation was revealed to them.

    The Hebrew day began in the evening, after sunset, and ended the next day at sunset. From evening to evening. (Leviticus 23:32) The Sabbath wasn't Law to Christians. (Romans 7:6 / Romans 10:4).

    Rabbinic sources indicate that in the time of Jesus three trumpet blasts at about the 9th hour (3:00 P.M.) on Friday afternoon announced the approach of the Sabbath day. At this time all work and business ceased and the Sabbath lamp was lit, then three more blasts indicated the actual beginning. Rabbinic sources indicate that in the time of Jesus three trumpet blasts at about the 9th hour (3:00 P.M.) on Friday afternoon announced the approach of the Sabbath day. At this time all work and business ceased and the Sabbath lamp was lit, then three more blasts indicated the actual beginning. The Jews didn't have names for days of the week, they were simply numbered.From sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, their seventh day, was the Sabbath.
     
  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    The point of the OP is that the Bible gives no indication as to the age of the earth or universe. One can't make some determination, for example, of 6,000 years based upon the Bible, so whatever science may estimate at any given time isn't conflicting with the Bible.

    Your point on without form and void I don't get. The term applies to there being no land mass. Once the waters are separated and the canopy that surrounded the earth until the flood of Noah's day is lifted then there is form.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The constant cry of "no evidence" is heard by those that either do not understand the evidence when it comes to religious beliefs. Scholars are not allowed to base claims on "no evidence" that is typically the practice of self appointed "experts" in the Bible. How does not tell if he is a self appointed expert in the Bible, which there are countless examples of, and not a real scholar? If you only use yourself as a source then you are probably just as deluded as the people that you oppose. Scholars not only do their own study and come up with claims that they can support based upon knowledge of the history of the area, the language of the time and that languages that the Bible was written in, but also upon the work of earlier scholars. If they want to refute the work of an earlier scholar they lay out a clear case, it is never based solely upon their understanding of a particular chosen interpretation of the Bible.
     
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  12. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Not sure if crust could come up and go down many times, but with the current crust and what we know about our Solar System, seems the Earth is 4.543 billion years old and no one should have a problem with this on the religious or scientific side.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Crust movement for 5.5 billion years is normal for science but not in the context of the time frame nor description in the Bible including the fact of no evidence for Biblical flood.
     
  14. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Why does a day have to be a day? And why do all cultures or virtually all cultures have a flood myth?
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    . . . because it refers to a morning and evening, the sequence is not science, it describes an Aristotilian world, and not remotely science. The text of the Pentateuch is only to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and possibly ~700-800 BCE. The only comparable texts are Sumerian, Babylonian Canaanite and Ugarit texts. There is no evidence of Hebrew before maybe ~800-900 BCE.


    The flood stories of other cultures have virtually all been documented as local or regional floods, such as river floods, and tsunamis at different times. .
     
    #35 shunyadragon, Jan 17, 2019
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  16. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    why does a morning and evening have to be a morning and evening?
     
  17. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I'm not worried about the Biblical flood... it takes forever to debate. It doesn't make sense but I've heard enough counter to not draw conclusion yet. Anyway it's off topic.
     
    #37 robocop (actually), Jan 17, 2019
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  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Not that hard actually. Around 14 billion years ago the universe as we know it today cam into existence. That all the intro really is about it simply sets the table to get to the really important stuff. Our perceptions in how we separate ourselves from reality. From nature and on the list goes. Its told in story eve adam eating the apple apparently its too difficult for folks so they default to simpleton arguing about creation. Like a completely worthless debate and not relevant by everyone.
     
  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    No. You don't give any evidence. You just dismiss the Bible as evidence and then say there's no evidence. Meanwhile, there's ton's of evidence for the Bible and none for your higher criticism and documentary theory.

    We've been through this before. You are not stupid so why don't you see the illogical nature of the insignificance in your conclusion.

    There are no original recordings of the Alice Cooper Freak Out Album. The video below contains the entire album under another name. I owned a vinyl copy of the album under the name Freak Out. Yet, there it is.



    Secular history doesn't give the origin of the Hebrew language, nor that of the Sumerian, Akkadian, Aramaen and Egyptian and yet you say the Bible was taken from some of these. The reason for this is that they appeared to be fully developed in the earliest written records to have been found.

    In the Hebrew scriptures the term Hebrew isn't applied to the language, but rather to the people as a whole. Terms like "the Jew's language", Jewish and "the language of Canaan" are used. (2 Kings 18:26-28 / Nehemiah 13:24 / Isaiah 19:18)

    What kind of scrolls did Moses write the history on that they should survive from 1513 B.C.E.?
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    The Bible in and of itself is not evidence. The claim of internal evidence is circular unless it can be confirmed by outside evidence. The Pentateuch has not absolutely no evidence for the source of the text or the history.

    I have provided evidence and we can go over that again if you like.

    Yes, we have been through this before and then as now you have failed to present external evidence concerning the fundamentalist claim of the origin and historicity of the Pentateuch.

    I go by the factual external evidence for the history of the Pentateuch.


    Secular history gives the origin of the Hebrew language as an evolved variant of Canaanite, , , and the text of Genesis creation and other parts from older Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite and cuneiform Ugarit texts.

    From: Hebrew language - Wikipedia

    "Hebrew (/ˈhiːbruː/; עִבְרִית‎, Ivrit [ivˈʁit] ([​IMG]listen) or [ʕivˈɾit] ([​IMG]listen)) is a Northwest Semitic language native to Israel, the modern version of which is spoken by over 9 million people worldwide.[8] Historically, it is regarded as the language of the Israelites and their ancestors, although the language was not referred to by the name Hebrew in the Tanakh.[note 1] The earliest examples of written Paleo-Hebrewdate from the 10th century BCE.[9] Hebrew belongs to the West Semitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family. Hebrew is the only living Canaanite language left, and the only truly successful example of a revived dead language."

    Yes, the earliest Hebrew was a Canaanite-Hebrew script first found about ~800-900 BCE, but absolutely no script that could be identified as written by Hebrews before this.

    Papyrus like used in Egypt that he would be familiar with and commonly available. Clay tablets which are commonly used by Sumerians, Canaanites, Ugarits, and Phoenicians, or possible stone Stella, which are common.
     
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