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When is Passover, and when is the Feast of Unleavened bread?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    When is the actual date of the Passover, and the actual date of the Feast of Unleavened Bread? (Numbers 28:16-17)

    The traditions of the Jewish Pharisees are not the same as the Word of God.(Numbers 28:16-17) & (Lev 23:5-6). & John 20:31. A "high day" "Sabbath", is not the same as a Sabbath. The 14th of day of the first month was not a high holy day. It was a day when you could put people on the cross, break "their legs" and take the leaven out of the house. The 14th of Nissan, at the time of the crucifixion, was on a Wednesday, the high holy Sabbath, the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, the 15th of Nissan, was on a Thursday, and 3 days and 3 nights later, on the evening of the regular Sabbath, Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty on the dawn of the 1st day of the week, which starts at sundown of the previous day. Between the harlot Judah (Rev 17:16), and the "daughters of Babylon" (Zech 2:7), the "Christian church", the world seems to be going in circles, and truth seems to remain at bay.

    King James Bible John 19:31
    The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    Numbers 28: 16‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD’S Passover. 17 ‘On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. 18‘On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    In a western calendar, sunset 30th March - 7th April, this year.

    But that's not what you're really asking, is it?
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    So here's the bad news:

    The word pesaḥ when used in the Torah only means the Paschal sacrifice. It has no other meaning. What you may not be aware of, is that the Torah doesn't use proper names for the holidays. Actually it doesn't really use proper names for any temporal events: the days of the week are simply numbers, the days of the months are as well. The Sabbatical literally just means "septuplet". The "Biblical" name of the three pilgrimages is simply "ḥag" which is generally translated as "celebration" or "feast" although I think the meaning may be slightly different, but that's neither here nor there.

    The problem is, if all the holidays are ḥag, how will we ever tell which one we're talking about. Simple, an event that is related to the time frame in which it takes place or a commandment related to the holiday is added to define the specific ḥag. For instance, the Jewish holiday of Tabernacles is called "ḥag ha'asif" or "the holiday of gathering". But it doesn't mean that the harvest was gathered on the holiday, it's just a way of identifying which ḥag is being discussed: it's the ḥag that occurs during the season when people gathered their harvests. Similarly, the other name for the holiday, "ḥag hasukot" or the holiday of the huts, where "huts" is an event that takes place over the holiday so we can pinpoint which "ḥag" we're talking about.

    Similarly, the Festival of Weeks is "ḥag hashevu'ot" which is the festival that comes out after you counted a bunch of weeks from Passover. It's also called "ḥag haqatzir" the "festival of harvest". But you can't actually harvest food on the festival as it's like a Sabbath. It's because the festival takes place during the season when people harvest their stuff. So these are not propernames per se, but just ways of differentiating between the different ḥagim.

    So that brings us to Lev. 23:5 and Num. 28:16. "On the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month [between the eventings], pesaḥ to YH-H".

    Since there's no additional word "ḥag" to tell us that we're discussing a holiday (comp. Ex. 34:25), what this verse is actually saying is that the Passover offering is meant to be sacrificed to G-d on the evening of the 14th.

    And that brings us back to the OP's title. The holiday of Passover is the Jewish colloquial name for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The two are synonymous and they occur at exactly the same time for exactly the same duration.
     
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  4. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    I am currently studying the topic, but I will say the claim is wrong on two counts, first that Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Abib, yet he ate the Passover with his disciples(Luke 22:7-8), which would have been the 14th, and the next day he was crucified, that is, on the fifteenth of Abib. Secondly, while we may agree that he resurrected on the day after the sabbath, yet in order to support a Wednesday crucifixion date you must insert an extra day before the sabbath, yet after the crucifixion, only in Mark 15:42-43, it is said the day after he was crucified was the sabbath(i.e. the sabbath day), as opposed to the first consecrated day of the feast week(Leviticus 23:7, Numbers 28:18). Thus are the three days: the 15th(first day of the feast of unleavened bread - Num. 28:17), the 16th(sabbath), and the 17th(Sunday).
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your information. But according to Numbers 28:16-17, they have different dates, and have different rules. My problem is with the "Jewish colloquial name", is that it seems to be misleading. Passover, or the LORD's passover, is getting ready, or preparing for the angel of death, and the "feast" of "unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days", would be the consequences of the angel bringing death having passed over. And yes the "Festival of Weeks" the "festival of harvest" (spring harvest), is important, and you can't actually harvest on that date, for it is a high holy Sabbath, in that you can't work, and generally 6 out of 7 times, does not fall on the actual weekly Sabbath. But these dates were memorials, which are to be held every year, and are predictors of what is going to happen in the future (Ecc 1:9). As for the weeks of weeks, the harvest, that would refer to the LORD not harrowing the ground forever (Isaiah 28:23-29), and the harvest, with respect to people, is going to come sooner or later. (Isaiah 27:12) And as the sons of Judah and Jerusalem have already been restored (Joel 3:1), we are talking about the "house of Israel", or the "stick of Israel" (Ezekiel 36 & 37) which has yet to be hunted down (Jer 16:16) and returned to the "land I gave to Jacob" after being "combined" with the "stick of Judah" (Ez 37:15-27) & (Ez 36:24-28). What I am saying is that one should read Isaiah 1, and act accordingly.

    Numbers 28: 16‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD’S Passover. 17 ‘On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. 18‘On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work.

    Isaiah 27:12
    In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel.
     
    #5 2ndpillar, Mar 22, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The Passover starts on the evening of the previous day. The Jewish day starts in the evening of the previous day, not at midnight.
     
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    So, reading your response, I'm getting the feeling that you didn't actually understand what I wrote, or chose to just use it as a springboard for another sermon rather than directly respond to my point.
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Bingo.
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I simply disagree that the two "are synonymous", and they occur at exactly the same time for the exactly the same duration". The "Lord's Passover" occurs on the 14th, and lasts one day. The Feast of unleavened bread last for 7 days, and commences on the 15th day of the first month. The two are related, as are all the high holy days, but not synonymous.

    The nations are now gathered against Jerusalem (Zech 14:1-3), and when they "capture" it, is the day the "LORD" fights (Zech 14:2-3), and when the angel of death flies over again (Zech 14:12), is when the nations are defeated and those "who are left of the nations" will start to keep the "feast of booths" (Zech 14:16), the second to the last high holy day. The feast of booths is to celebrate when the sons of Israel were brought out of Egypt (Lev 23:43). A second coming out of Egypt/nations will occur according to Ezekiel 36:24-28 following another passing over of the angel of the LORD, known as the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) A thousand years later, would be the "last great day" (Lev 23:36), an offering by fire.
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The reason why you disagree might just be because you only read the last two lines.

    I think, once you read my entire post, you'll realize why it's easy to tell that you haven't read it yet.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It is easy to tell you don't thoroughly read my posts, because you have previously said so. While I thought your post was pedantic, I did read it. I simply didn't agree with your conclusion. I think as a elder of your house, you would be a little more careful in your discourse. After all, it is the elders who the "executioners" go after first. (Ezekiel 9:1-6) "So they started with the elders".
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I don't read your posts, because you don't write topics of discussions, you write sermons about Christianity.

    You don't read my posts because you're afraid of the reprecussions to your faith, perhaps? That might explain why you can write of my response - which basically upends the basis of your OP - as being pedantic.

    I am not the elder of my house. An elder is someone in charge of running things. Eliezer, Abraham's top servant, is the elder of the house. I'm the master of the house. If that's also too pedantic, I can start randomly replacing nouns and verbs in my responses to you with other unrelated nouns and verbs to lower the accuracy of my posts to fit your standard.
     
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  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Actually, you are making a false witness statement. I read your post, I just didn't think too much of them. It was you who said you didn't read my post. It is you making the long drawn out sermons about words and traditions. I am simply discussing the underlying meanings of what is in both the OT and the NT, and when applicable, use quotes from the Law and the prophets to back up my points. It may not fit within your learned opinions based on the Talmud, but then the Talmud, the product of the lying scribes of Jeremiah 8:8, is that which is the leaven/hypocrisy of the Pharisees, for which it is necessary to throw out prior to the feast of unleavened bread. The passing over of the angel of death is the predominate theme of why one must prepare on Passover, the 14th day of the 1st month. In the future, there will be angels of death, who will come again, and Jerusalem will be captured (Zechariah 14:1-3), and there will be those who "escape", (Joel 2:32), and there will be those who don't (Zech 13:8-9).

    You previously wrote: The "Biblical" name of the three pilgrimages is simply "ḥag" which is generally translated as "celebration" or "feast" although I think the meaning may be slightly different, but that's neither here nor there.

    That is simply untrue, even when quoting from a Jewish bible.

    18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and does not come, it shall not [rain] upon them. The plague [on Egypt] will be [the same as] that with which the Lord will plague the nations who do not go up to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles. Zechariah - Chapter 14

     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Again you are proving that you have not read through my post (or do not understand what I have written). I have not quoted the Talmud nor based my explanation on anything that can be found in the Talmud or Jewish literature (unlike you who have continuously quoted Christian theology at me).

    I will explain it to you again in less detail to account for you ADHD. In my first post I explained that ḥag is the Biblical name for all the holidays while various descriptors are used to indicate which ḥag is being discussed. I even gave an example with the festival of Tabernacles. The holiday is called Tabernacles colloquially even though it's really only the name for the huts that Jews build on the festival that is called "ḥag haSukot" or "Festival of Tabernacles".

    From there I explained that the word "Passover" or in the Hebrew pesaḥ when used in the Torah does not mean "the holiday of Passover". The "holiday of Passover" would be ḥag haPesaḥ as is found in Ex. 34:25. The word pesaḥ on it's own is the name of the Passover sacrifice. While ḥag haPesaḥ is the holiday on which the Passover offering is eaten.

    So the "L-rd's Passover" is referring to the Passover sacrifice and not the holiday of Passover which would have to have been called "the L-rd's Festival of Passover". It's not, because the two verses are telling us when to sacrifice the Passover offering: on the 14th day of the month, in the evening. It's not telling us when the festival of Passover is to take place.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You seem to have confused yourself with all your explaining. The "Feast of Tabernacles" is called the "Feast of Tabernacles" /Succoth because that is what it is called in the Jewish bible. (Zechariah 14:18) & (Lev 23:34). The same for the "Feast of Unleavened Bread"/"Festival of Unleavened Cakes". What is important is what the "festival"/"Feast" represents. In the case of the "feast of booths", it represents Israel coming out of Egypt, it is not about some booths/tabernacles. (Lev 23:43) The "tabernacle" part comes into play in via Ezekiel 37:28, at the "end of the age" (Daniel 12:13). I don't know where you get your information, but the Jewish bible doesn't seem to support it. As for Passover, it is not a high holy Sabbath, but is simply a day of preparation for the coming angel of death, or death angel, or whatever descriptor is in your particular bible. That angel of the LORD is coming again. (Ecc 1:9) Are you ready?

    Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of that month is the Festival of Unleavened Cakes to the Lord; you shall eat unleavened cakes for a seven day period. Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 23 (Parshah Emor)

    Lev 23:34Speak to the children of Israel, saying: On the fifteenth day of this seventh month, is the Festival of Succoth, a seven day period to the Lord. Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 23 (Parshah Emor)
     
  16. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

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    But according to the other gospels Jesus participated in the Passover supper on the 15th on Nissan. So Jesus couldn’t have been crucified on the 14th of Nissan.
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    My goodness.

    Ok, let's try this instead. Can you quote me a verse where the word "ḥag/festival" is not used when referring to Tabernacles?
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Are you now a "Christian" who abides by the canon set by the "daughter of Babylon" (Zech 2:7), the Roman church? As for the Jewish "colloquial" use of the term Passover to include the Feast of Unleavened bread, how long has that been around? But a good catch on how the terms were both apparently misused by the Jews of both early and late years. As for you, Zechariah 2:7 tells "Zion" to come out of the "daughter of Babylon". Which is to say, you should be wary of anything the Roman church has published. And according to Zech 3:1, who was the "high priest" "standing before the angel of the LORD"?

    Lev 23: 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, in the afternoon, [you shall sacrifice] the Passover offering to the Lord. Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 23 (Parshah Emor)

    Lev 12:18 In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, you shall eat unleavened cakes, until the twenty first day of the month in the evening.
    Was the Passover lamb eaten before or after sunset? Were the "unleavened cakes" eaten before or after sunset? How many days between the evening of the fourteenth day in the evening, until the twenty first day in the evening? Do you begin Passover on the evening of the 13th of the first month, the 30th of March, or on the evening of the 14th of the first month? When does the LORD's Passover begin, and when does the feast of unleavened bread begin? And what do they commemorate?

    Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of that month is the Festival of Unleavened Cakes to the Lord; you shall eat unleavened cakes for a seven day period. Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 23 (Parshah Emor)

    Luke 22:7
    Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed.

    New American Standard Bible Mt 26:17
    Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
     
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