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When is a rape joke okay?

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm sure you have heard...

When I was an obnoxious and self-centered tween, I complained to my mother about how a schoolmate was dealing with the death of her pet.

"She's been crying and whining and being mean to everyone, and it's so stupid! When my dad died I didn't even cry -- and he was my dad! She lost a dog and she's crying? It's so stupid!"

My mother, in her attempt to teach me empathy while staying empathetic to my completely selfish point of view, offered this, "Well, you know, everyone deals with loss in a different way. I knew a girl in Nursing School who laughed when she was upset. My roommate's mother had died and when she told us, this girl immediately started laughing hysterically. My roommate stormed out and as soon as she was gone, the other girl stopped laughing and said, 'Oh, I'm so, so sorry. I can't help myself. Whenever sometime terrible happens, I just laugh.'"

This story did two things for me. It made me realize that the way I process grief is not the way other people process it, so I should never judge someone in the grieving process. More importantly, it made me realize that laughter is a powerful tool against fear, despair and agony. What my mother's college friend did unintentionally -- it was a nervous tic that helped her psychologically cope -- I wanted to learn how to do intentionally. I wanted to laugh at pain.

So, when I see people say certain subjects should never be joked about, I understand that laughing might not be how they want to deal with those topics, but it helps me and many other people cope with them. I love using satire to show how stupid people who are racist or sexist are. I love writing sarcastic offensive jokes to dispatch wordplay or irony. I adore making fun of Nazis and the Holocaust, because to actually think about what happened during that time period is so horrifying you need to make fun of Hitler sometimes to diffuse the pain.

So why did the recent Daniel Tosh "rape joke" story upset me -- and so many other people -- so much?

Firstly, rape jokes can be funny.

Immediately following the initial twitter storm about the incident, Nell Scovell tried to illustrate this by tweeting a few Sarah Silverman rape jokes, including this one, "I was raped by a doctor... which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl." Silverman's act is about toying with what's taboo in society. She wants to point out ironies in our values with context and wordplay. We know by the steady stream of culturally offensive jokes, and by her painted on smirk, that she knows her topics are considered offensive. It's about the irony of a "cute, likable girl" pushing society's hatred back on itself.

Then on the opposite end of the "rape joke" spectrum, you've got a joke like John Mulaney's "Subway Station Chase", which juxtaposes all conventional rape discussion by showing a young man's sudden realization that his physical actions could be interpreted as sexually threatening and he's in a position where he can't address it without being potentially more threatening. He can't ever make his immediate guilt and mortification for being mistaken for a rapist ever be less than the woman's fear of being raped -- and he knows this. The audience can empathize with the emotional awkwardness of the situation.

I'm also a massive fan of Anthony Jeselnik, who, like Tosh, is a handsome male comic who revels in a "*********" persona and who purposely makes offensive jokes. So why do I find Jeselnik's rape jokes hilarious? The difference is that Jeselnik is in love with the wordplay. Like Silverman, he uses rape, racism, murder, suicide and the death of babies as themes in his jokes because he enjoys the challenge of trying to diffuse the horror of those topics with the humor of the perfect one-liner. Plus, Jeselnik so clearly immerses himself in an unlikable persona that he lets the audience know that he as the comic knows everything he's talking about is horrible and wrong.

Daniel Tosh, however, keeps things silly. He keeps the tone jocular. Tosh wants to inhabit the persona of the likable ne'er-do-well who's your coolest friend. So, when he says "rape jokes are always funny", he's not playing the part of a horrible human being who would think rape jokes are always funny -- he's showing us that the cool, likable guy at the party probably thinks rape is funny... and okay. There's nothing in his tone, writing or presentation that says, "Rape jokes are funny because jokes are funny. Rape itself is wrong."

This is why the Daniel Tosh incident "crossed the line" for so many people. It's not that comics can't cross lines. Comics should say whatever they want. If Tosh honestly thinks rape is funny... well, that's his opinion. That's his worldview. What's disturbing is that this is a worldview that is violent and that lacks empathy. What's even more disturbing is that he's not some unknown comic presenting an unpopular opinion. He's one of the most popular and beloved comic acts in the country. Which means that a huge percentage of our country thinks rape jokes are funny, but not because they admire Jeselnik's wordplay or Silverman's irony or Mulaney's empathetic juxtaposition. They think rape jokes are funny because they think the act of physically hurting and sexually dominating a woman against her will is funny.

And it's not. They're not laughing at a joke. They're laughing at the concept of rape. Rape is disturbing and horrible. It's one of the horrors that we should keep at bay with humor, not encourage. Right now, the woman who posted the complaint about Tosh is receiving legitimate death and rape threats from his fans. So, his "joke" didn't diffuse pain or horror -- it sparked it.

If this is what Tosh wanted to do artistically, then, well, he has every right as a comedian to do so. The fact that he backpedaled on the joke on twitter however suggests that he doesn't want to be seen as that kind of comic. Again, Tosh wants to be liked. He wants to be popular, and so we circle back to the fact that the problem isn't Daniel Tosh. The problem is that our society is still a rape culture where a large percentage of people think that rape's OK and that a girl in a short skirt is asking for it and that it's funny to assault someone. Not for the sake of satire, but for one person's amusement over another person's real life victimization.

So, I'm not personally mad at Daniel Tosh. He can say and do what he wants. If he needs to say things like "rape jokes are always funny" on stage in order to cope with whatever's in his life, he totally has that right. Sometimes we laugh at tragedy because we can't physically -- or psychologically -- do anything else.

I'm mad at society. I'm mad that we live in a culture where there are still people who think the idea of brutally gang raping a woman is worthy of laughter.

Because let's be honest. "Wouldn't it be funny if five guys came in and raped you right now?" isn't funny, but it's not because it's a rape joke. It's not funny because it's a rape joke premise. You can't laugh at something so underdeveloped no matter what kind of sense of humor you have -- unless of course, it's really how you feel.
Meghan O'Keefe: When Rape Jokes Are Never Funny

In fairness:

UPDATE: Laugh Factory owner Jamie Masada, who claims to have been present the night of Tosh's show, has told Buzzfeed that the comedian's exchange with the offended audience member didn't happen the way she described.

According to Masada, Tosh didn't make a joke about the woman getting raped and the topic arose when the comedian asked the audience what they wanted to talk about and someone said "rape." He says that this is when the woman called out to Tosh, and that he responded like so:

"Daniel came in, and he said, 'Well it sounds like she’s been raped by five guys' — something like that. I really didn’t hear properly."

He also alleges that the woman stayed for the entire set and did not complain to management until after the show.
Daniel Tosh Apologizes For Rape Joke Aimed At Female Audience Member At Laugh Factory

And for extra thought:

In the wake of a female audience member accusing Daniel Tosh of making a rape joke at her expense, comedians have taken to Twitter to comment on the controversy.

While numerous comedy fans and professionals have tweeted messages condemning Tosh's response to the female heckler, some comedy figures, including Jim Norton, Louis C.K. and Opie of The Opie & Anthony Show, have expressed support for Tosh and for a comedians' right to speak uncensored.

Dane Cook, who performed at The Laugh Factory on the same night as Tosh, had a darker message: easily offended people should kill themselves.
Comedians Defend Daniel Tosh Rape Joke On Twitter (NSFW)



DISCUSS!
 

Wirey

Fartist
Everything can be funny. George Carlin actually did a bit on this where he said rape could be funny in the right context. He mentioned an eskimo rapist and said "Can you imagine trying to get wet leather leggings off a woman who's fighting back?"

If a joke offends you, don't laugh. If it is intended to incite hatred, speak up. But don't say 'no YOUR PET PEEVE HERE jokes allowed'. I don't like black jokes, but I'm not going to say Chris Rock should shut up.

PS I take great offense to this statement:
I'm mad at society. I'm mad that we live in a culture where there are still people who think the idea of brutally gang raping a woman is worthy of laughter.
Moron! It's not the idea of the rape that's funny, it's the complete inappropriateness of the reference that's funny. There's nothing like someone who doesn't get the joke explaining it to you.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I suppose there could be a context in which a rape joke would be funny, though I can't think of one off the top of my head....

I guess it would be pretty funny if a guy told a rape joke while he was getting raped....
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Rape is made light of regularly, but it goes unnoticed.
It all depends upon who is being raped.
Male on male rape in prison is pretty fair game, perhaps because men aren't
seen as victims, or because inmates deserve that extra special punishment.
But then, women being raped in prison isn't fodder for humor.
Even priest jokes about raping boys can be found unpoofed here in the forums.
I've no solution, except it's good that the topic has been brought up. Heightened
awareness can't hurt.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
On a more serious note, humor to me is a coping mechanism to deal with what would otherwise be more worthy of tears than laughter.

Lampoon everything, laugh in the face of horror, life is short.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
On a more serious note, humor to me is a coping mechanism to deal with what would otherwise be more worthy of tears than laughter.
Lampoon everything, laugh in the face of horror, life is short.
True dat. And we never know what the boundaries are until we push them.

BTW, Tis no coincidence that the world's most offensive joke is also the world's funniest.
A priest & a rabbi are driving past a school.......
If you know the rest, you know I'm right.
If you don't already know, then you shouldn't know.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
It was just a few years ago when Michael Richards was reamed in the press for his racist tirade, and I don't remember a lot of comedians giving public support for his use of an offensive word. Where was the pressing debate on whether his words were okay or not?

Apparently rape jokes are considered okay by our culture. Or at least worthy of debate. Sadly, I'm not that surprised.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
A racist tirade does not a joke make. Not unless you're creative anyway.

Tosh's "rape joke" wasn't meant to be a joke, but a rebuttal to a female heckler. I'm just curious why Richards was apologetic for causing so much grief, but with Daniel Tosh's latest 15 minutes of fame, he is getting support from other comedians to speak uncensored on stage?

BTW, I'm a huge Doug Stanhope fan, probably one of the most controversial of comedians I've seen in this generation and LOL at his stand up routines every time.

Maybe you can explain the discrepancy.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It was just a few years ago when Michael Richards was reamed in the press for his racist tirade, and I don't remember a lot of comedians giving public support for his use of an offensive word. Where was the pressing debate on whether his words were okay or not?

In case anyone was wondering...

WARNING: Explicit content.

[youtube]6pp6WC1Ocz4[/youtube]
Michael Richards (Seifneld's Kramer) Racist Rant - YouTube

[youtube]QfbqNi2zezo[/youtube]
Kramer Racist - complete - YouTube

Apparently rape jokes are considered okay by our culture. Or at least worthy of debate. Sadly, I'm not that surprised.
:( Sorry. I just kept seeing it over and over this morning.

My guess is that this story will be on TV in the coming days. Maybe not.


Strange enough, same club.
 

Wirey

Fartist
A rape joke is okay under the following conditions:

Someone tells it
Someone else finds it funny
It is not intended to cause actual harm

If a joke sets you off, tough. Your hang up isn't my problem. If soemone told a joke about Canadians that I found offensive, should he/she be silenced because I get offended?

If someone's cracking rape jokes to intimidate or harass someone else, that's over the line. If you're just going for a laugh, I'm alright with it.
 
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