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Featured When do you Think The Great Deception Started?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    You and I have totally different beliefs regarding the attributes of G-d. We (Judaism) don’t believe that G-d can ever be less than G-d, similar to how infinity can’t switch to being finite. As G-d created time, this means that G-d is outside of time. So G-d sees past, present, and future simultaneously. Thus, G-d can’t stop knowing how people choose to do things. G-d knows everything that humans ever did do, can do, and will do. He created us anyways. He gave us the capacity to make choices and commit mistakes, knowing that we can choose poorly.

    So your premise is false from the start. G-d wasn’t surprised by Adam/Eve choices and he wasn’t surprised by the actions of the talking snake. G-d knows that humans aren’t content to loll around a garden and be spoon-fed all our needs. The whole episode was a growth experience for Adam & Eve, and by extension all of humanity. We now have reasons and explanations of why we need to toil for our needs and why snakes slither on the ground.

    Adam and Eve couldn’t choose differently any more than Wonder Woman could have choose not to leave her island. They are both stories which need to make points. Albeit the Adam/Eve story comes from G-d and the Wonder Woman story was written by penname Charles Moulton.

    There was no ‘fall’ of human beings. We are just as G-d created/creates us. We are a species that is always striving and creating. G-d made Creation incomplete, knowing that we will do our part to complete it. The garden story teaches that we humans aren't content to just lay around and do nothing for our whole lives. The idea that G-d’s creation can be altered by the actions of a creation is just laughable to me. The clay does not make the pot, it can only be done by the potter. Death has always been part of G-d’s creation. It is natural and obvious, just as linear time and living in the moment is natural to us humans.

    For what?
     
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  2. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you a bit. It all starts with the 666.

    It's rumored that the 666th figure of the Bible happens to be Solomon. When the number is turned bottom up, the 999 represents the purity of gold. 666 is about a figure representing wealth or gold or currency. The name of beast is Washington which is the US. During the cold war, whenever it is said that "this is from Washington" it means that it's from the US the beast.

    The first beast is coming out of the sea, it is England with it's united kingdom and commonwealth countries. The whole world follows England before WWII with the crowns from the Queen of England. England is where our secular educated in English was started. This secular education system in English was then delivered to the US as the second beast. Since then everyone is forced into this secular education system to receive the mark to fight God.

    Right hand and forehead refers to the custom of ancient Jews tying Bible verses to their foreheads and hands as a sign of their minds (forehead) and behaviors (right hand) being guided by God. After secular education, they have the mark in their minds and behaviors to fight God. Buy and sell refers to how people's daily life is affected by education. You can't refused to be education since childhood and you need education to find you a job for living.

    Deception is conveyed without humans' own notice through this secular education system. They have redefined what science is in order to accommodate a completely incompatible theory of evolution. And by this twisted definition of science, it sounds as if science is all about evidence and explanation while it's not! That's where the deception begins. Then this world has been portrayed into a world of evidence, which however is a delusion. Based on the delusion everyone thus draws the conclusion that "you should believe only when things are evidenced". This however is a lie, one of the biggest in human history ever. Our reality operates in the opposite way.

    The agenda behind all this is for humans to give up anything said about the future due to the absence of evidence. Humans can't gather evidence of the future, while since evidence is a must to confirm a truth thus you can ignore whatever said about the future. This is the agenda (of Satan).


    However, the true nature of humans is that we are creatures of the present. We are cut from the direct access of both the past and the future. We have to rely heavily on faith in a "middle man" to reach both ends. This "middle man" acts as a direct witness for humans to put in faith to reach a truth. This is how this reality works under the constrain that both past and future are cut from our direct reach. To put it another way, the only way which works effectively for humans to reach a truth of any kind is by putting faith. Humans in majority never/seldom/don't rely on evidence to get to a truth, even in the case of a scientific truth.
     
    #42 Hawkins, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I think that most theists don't operate out of intended deceptions but more likely out of attempts to try and understand how we got here and what our roles in life should be. To me, I think religions and denominations try and do this in a generally honest way, although no doubt they are self-serving at least at times.
     
  4. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    That's why among the 100% humans who know for a fact that black holes exist, 99% of them don't have the evidence. They know for a fact that black holes exist (a scientific fact) long before evidence being presented to them.

    This said that,

    1) We don't usually rely on evidence to reach a truth,
    2) We failed to have a good grip on what our reality is,

    as a result of our secular education which having everyone brainwashed since childhood!

    That said. If the whole mankind got the simple truth wrong, is it possible that this is intended by someone more powerful than us, especially under the circumstance that this Great Deception is somehow prophesied?
     
    #44 Hawkins, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, I understand our differences. But I am not of the belief that God can change. I am not a trinitarian and hence entertain no ideas about mortal Jesus being immortal God. It is absurd IMV. It is true that God can know all things if he chooses to. But he had only one negative command in the garden and expected that the penalty would suffice to prevent them transgressing. But giving humans free will was a risky business. God was prepared for all eventualities....he allowed the humans to make their own choices and was ready with a solution for whatever transpired.

    I had no false premise. I never said God was surprised by their actions....I said he was prepared for whatever action they chose. By responding to their actions, YHWH lived up to the meaning of his name. To "be" or to "become" whatever is required to fulfill his purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

    According to Ezekiel, in his dirge to the King of Tyre....this passage of scripture was really directed at satan, who was identified as "a cherub of great measure" in the "garden of God". This explains why satan was even there in the garden. It explains why he was able to choose his timing perfectly when using the snake to tempt Eve.

    In Eden, the garden of God you were; every precious stone was [set in] your covering; ruby, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and crystal and gold; the work of your drums and your orifices is in you; on the day of your creation they were established.
    יגבְּעֵ֨דֶן גַּן־אֱלֹהִ֜ים הָיִ֗יתָ כָּל־אֶ֨בֶן יְקָרָ֚ה מְסֻכָתֶ֙ךָ֙ אֹ֣דֶם פִּטְדָ֞ה וְיַֽהֲלֹ֗ם תַּרְשִׁ֥ישׁ שֹׁ֙הַם֙ וְיָ֣שְׁפֵ֔ה סַפִּ֣יר נֹ֔פֶךְ וּבָֽרְקַ֖ת וְזָהָ֑ב מְלֶ֨אכֶת תֻּפֶּ֚יךָ וּנְקָבֶ֙יךָ֙ בָּ֔ךְ בְּי֥וֹם הִבָּֽרַאֲךָ֖ כּוֹנָֽנוּ:
    14You were a cherub of great measure, that covers, and I gave that to you; you were on the mount of the sanctuary of God: you walked among stones of fire.
    ידאַ֨תְּ־כְּר֔וּב מִמְשַׁ֖ח הַסּוֹכֵ֑ךְ וּנְתַתִּ֗יךָ בְּהַ֨ר קֹ֚דֶשׁ אֱלֹהִים֙ הָיִ֔יתָ בְּת֥וֹךְ אַבְנֵי־אֵ֖שׁ הִתְהַלָּֽכְתָּ:
    15You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until wrongdoing was found in you.
    טותָּמִ֚ים אַתָּה֙ בִּדְרָכֶ֔יךָ מִיּ֖וֹם הִבָּֽרְאָ֑ךְ עַד־נִמְצָ֥א עַוְלָ֖תָה בָּֽךְ: (Ezekiel 28:13-15)

    This is not just addressed to that wicked king. It explains a lot. It tells us that satan was not created to be wicked but of his own free will, chose that course.

    It is obvious from our design that humans are created for work. We are to emulate our Creator in his creativity and to serve his interests by our obedience to him, populating the earth and educating our children in God's ways, even when the world around us is going in the opposite direction.

    The mandate in Eden was reiterated to Noah when he came out of the ark.....except for one aspect. Whereas Adm and his wife were to populate the earth with their kind, they were also to "subdue" the earth outside the garden. This part was missing from God's command to Noah. The earth would no longer be transformed into an earthly paradise under satan's influence. Humans lost the capacity to do good for any length of time. They messed up the earth rather than caring for it......today, it is just a giant garbage dump to them.

    So, you believe that God makes defective junk then? That does not fit in with the Genesis version of events at all. Adam and his wife began life in a perfect paradise with the prospect of living forever and 'filling the earth' with their offspring and spreading the boundaries of their paradise home earth wide. If the snake had not tempted the woman into disobedience, then none of what we see as human history would have ever transpired. Adam and Eve would still be here with all their progeny, enjoying the good life that God purposed for them....the only thing that would prevent that from taking place was disobedience to the only command that carried the death penalty.

    There was most definitely a "fall", resulting in both of them feeling shame on account of their nakedness. With this defect of sin now within them, they produced defective children with a leaning towards wrongdoing. Within one generation their firstborn killed his younger brother in a premeditated act of jealously inspired murder. That is how powerful sin was.

    We certainly do have our part to play, but unless we remain obedient to God in all things, we will never merit his favor. Doing only what we want to do, or going through the motions of empty ritual will get us nowhere. God does not want 'performance'...he wants our whole-hearted worship and unquestioning obedience. His purpose will go ahead with us or without us. So what is God's purpose?

    We believe that the completion of God's purpose in putting us here on this earth will not take place until all humanity now living, has had an opportunity to hear and respond to the message of salvation taught by the Christ.
    (in much the same way as Noah warned the people of his day of God's impending action to rid the earth of that time of wickedness)

    We believe that we are living in "the last days" of this present world system and our scripture explains why the world is going from bad to worse. This was all foretold in the Hebrew scriptures.....the "great day of Yahweh" is fast approaching. It is the day of God's judgment and of punishment for all the disobedient ones, not just in the holy land but in the whole earth. Daniel also foretold about "the time of the end" and was told to "seal up the book" until that time. Now we understand everything that was written in it. The march of world powers and the establishment of God's Kingdom in the rule of the last ruling king is significant as it brings us down to our day. (Daniel 2:44) Man will not relinquish his rulership easily, but they will be crushed out of existence by the superior power of God and his Messianic King.

    Isaiah 2:2-4 was also a foregleam of people from all nations streaming to true worship in "the final part of the days". The one identifying aspect of these people is that they "will not learn war anymore". Look for the ones who are at peace among themselves and with others and there you will find God's true worshipers.

    God's creation has been altered, but not permanently. He has allowed humans to experience first hand what results when those ignoring his laws and standards go their own way. The reason why Noah's mandate left out the part about 'subduing the earth' is because that was to come under the Messiah's future reign. Humans alienated from God would never accomplish it.

    What do Jews have as their "big picture"? What do you see as the future for mankind from your own scripture?
    Why did God put us here and where do we ultimately end up?

    There is no way to understand Christian scripture unless you first understand why God chose Israel.....why Jesus had to be Jewish and of the tribe of Judah.....why all scripture is written by Jews. (even the NT)

    The big picture has to explain Genesis to Revelation for us. How do the Hebrew scriptures explain it for you?
     
  6. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Shalom Deeje

    Your posts have beliefs that aren’t in accordance with the Tanakh. Our beliefs differ so much because we use different source material with different glossaries.

    In accordance with Judaism, G-d can not become less than G-d. G-d can’t ‘choose’ to not know all things. Your words that “G-d expected that the penalty would suffice..”, diminishes G-d by making G-d appear ignorant. For G-d not to know things means that G-d changes. Don't you see that your statements “I am not of the belief that G-d can change” and “G-d can know all things if he chooses to” conflict? If G-d can choose not to know, then He is changing.

    You say that freewill was a risky business, as if G-d has no idea how freewill works. G-d knows everything at all times! G-d knows the effect of freewill and He gave it to us as a gift. And yes, G-d knows the solutions for our poor choices and gave it to us, in the form of the Laws of Atonement. Every one of us can do the atonement process and atone for our sins, all on our own. The Law is not over the sea nor above the mountains, it is right in front of you, so you may do it. No intercessor needed.

    Nope, this satan thing is just Christian nonsense and changes to the Hebrew meanings. In the plain reading of E z e 28, the dirge is directed to the prince of Tyre. There is no such thing as a rebellious angel appearing anywhere in the entire Hebrew bible.

    The Hebrew text does not use the title ‘The Accuser’ anywhere in Genesis. The text of Genesis states that it was a talking snake and nothing more. Pasting the Hebrew does you no good when you don’t have any understanding of the Hebrew language.

    Nope, but you seem to. I would never describe G-d's Creations as 'defective junk'. You seem to have a really low opinion of humanity. And a low opinion of G-d for creating us as 'defective junk'. And if you don't think that G-d created us as 'defective junk', then you're back to G-d being surprised at the choices of His creations or that one the creations changed G-d's Creations in a way that G-d didn't intend.

    Whether you explicitly state or not that G-d wasn’t surprised, that is your meaning when you state that Adam and Eve’s mistakes changed the plan that G-d had. Like G-d had to come up with something on the fly, because He didn’t have a clue what to do once humanity made a choice different than G-d expected.

    G-d purposefully created us with the ability to make mistakes. Obviously, He had no plans for allowing us to stay in the garden. It was all a teaching lesson for our benefit. Nothing defective there. IMO to claim that there was a ‘fall’ in which our nature changed, makes G-d look to be incompetent or clueless.

    This is another difference between Judaism and Christianity. Your POV is all doom and gloom. Whereas our theology, based on the Hebrew bible, teaches us that we can look forward to good things. Earth will eventually become a paradise for all of humanity.

    Eventually, humanity will enter the Messianic Age. People will forget how to make war. This world will be transformed from ‘what it is’ to ‘what it should be’. We will have Heaven on Earth and every person will share in the benefits.

    G-d is the ultimate in generosity. G-d created this world for our benefit and pleasure.

    Where we end up, I’m assuming you mean after death. When we die, every human soul will either go straight to Heaven if they’re righteous enough or to Gehinnom for up to a year. After their time in Gehinnom, every soul will go to Heaven.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hello again Akivah. Thanks for your reply. My apologies for the length of this, but there was so much to address.....I'll break it up.

    God is not changing if he has always had the ability to selectively control his omniscience. If I was a locksmith and I had the key to unlock every lock on earth, would I need to unlock all of them just because I could? I don't believe God does either. He controls other aspects of his power, why not this aspect? How many times did he want to destroy Israel when they tried him by their continued rebelliousness and disobedience? Yet he remembered his covenant with Abraham and he restrained his anger. He did not exempt them from punishment though, did he?

    I am not putting limits on God's abilities but merely suggesting, not only what he does....but why he does it.
    To allow humans to choose their own course and then let them experience the full consequences of their actions is what God has always done. His words were not heeded by the first humans and neither were they heeded by the nation he chose as his means of producing the promised seed of Genesis 3:15.

    God is a teacher (Isaiah 30:20-21) and experience speaks louder than words, which can be ignored. God is teaching us the benefits of being obedient. If Adam and his wife had just obeyed their God, none of us would be living in this world of their making.

    Of course he knows the benefits of free will, otherwise he would have made us like the animals. We are endowed with God's qualities and his attributes, but when free will was abused, there was an object lesson that would speak louder than any words...experience is the best teacher. Sometimes the lessons are painful but they are not quickly forgotten.

    The "snake" suggested that humans would be better off if they ignored God's laws and did what they thought would benefit themselves. Was God right, or were they? Did God lie about death or did the snake lie? Was God keeping something beneficial from his human children? God allowed them to find that out for themselves....and here we are.

    Job 1: 6-7....
    Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.
    ווַיְהִ֣י הַיּ֔וֹם וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיָּב֥וֹא גַם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתוֹכָֽם:
    7The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.
    וַיֹּ֧אמֶר יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶל־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן מֵאַ֣יִן תָּבֹ֑א וַיַּ֨עַן הַשָּׂטָ֚ן אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר מִשּׁ֣וּט בָּאָ֔רֶץ וּמֵֽהִתְהַלֵּ֖ךְ בָּֽהּ:"

    Who then may I ask, is "the Adversary"? He entered right in among the angels of God, so he wasn't a material creature.....and when God asked him "Where are you coming from?" Did that mean that God didn't know?
    Can spirit beings transport themselves between heaven and earth? Apparently they can.

    Genesis 3:8-11....
    And they heard the voice of the Lord God going in the garden. . . .
    And the Lord God called to man, and He said to him, "Where are you?"

    טוַיִּקְרָ֛א יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶל־הָֽאָדָ֑ם וַיֹּ֥אמֶר ל֖וֹ אַיֶּֽכָּה:
    10And he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked; so I hid."
    יוַיֹּ֕אמֶר אֶת־קֹֽלְךָ֥ שָׁמַ֖עְתִּי בַּגָּ֑ן וָֽאִירָ֛א כִּֽי־עֵירֹ֥ם אָנֹ֖כִי וָאֵֽחָבֵֽא:
    11And He said, "Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
    יאוַיֹּ֕אמֶר מִ֚י הִגִּ֣יד לְךָ֔ כִּ֥י עֵירֹ֖ם אָ֑תָּה הֲמִן־הָעֵ֗ץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֥י אֲכָל־מִמֶּ֖נּוּ אָכָֽלְתָּ:"

    When God asked Adam and his wife in verse 13, "What is this that you have done?" Do we assume that God didn't know?

    By allowing his free willed, intelligent creation (both angels and humans) to voice their position, he is letting them condemn themselves by their own words and actions. That is the basis for his judgment and always has been.

    But it uses the term "Adversary" and he is an accuser. He accused Job of having wrong motives in his faithful service to God. He accused God of bribing Job with blessings in exchange for his loyalty. God allowed a test to prove that the Adversary was wrong. Job stands as a shining example of faith in the face of enormous tragedy. The Adversary is testing us all in the same way even today. (Proverbs 27:11) Will we respond like Job? or like Adam and his wife?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God did not create defective junk...that was the point. Humans became defective by their own choice, as soon as they broke the law of God. Why was there all of a sudden a sense of shame over their naked condition? Why did God expel them from the garden and bar the way to "the tree of life"? If he had created them to be defective, then he is not the Almighty.

    There was no mention of death in Eden except as a punishment. Living forever in their mortal flesh was guaranteed by being able to partake of "the tree of life". (Genesis 3:22-24) Barring access to the only means to keep them living was something the Adversary obviously did not anticipate. His devotees would now die and need replacing. Which is why he is constantly recruiting.

    Adam and his wife did not make a "mistake"....that is why the full punishment was meted out. They were not created as sinful beings prone to making mistakes. They were perfect in every respect, but with free will. Each one knew the penalty for disobeying that one command and yet they both stole something that belonged exclusively to God and there was no forgiveness possible. There is not a single mention of any remorse, nor any sacrifice offered by them to ask for God's forgiveness....there was no basis for granting it. They became acquainted with death very early in the piece, but it was the murder of their second son at the hands of their firstborn. Life outside the garden on cursed ground, it was tough going. Why would God punish them so severely for something that was not their fault?

    On the contrary, it makes him the wisest person in existence. The abuse of free will is serious. Look at all the world's problems and see that every one of them has the abuse of free will at the base of it. The lesson God is teaching us has to do with the proper use of free will within the parameters set by him. It isn't "free" to do as we please. When the free will of one more powerful is imposed so that the free will of others is taken away, then nothing good can be accomplished. Man was never designed to impose his will on others. That power corrupts him horribly.

    Jeremiah said....
    "I know, O Lord, that man's way is not his; neither has the man who goes, to prepare his step."
    כגיָדַ֣עְתִּי יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֛י לֹ֥א לָֽאָדָ֖ם דַּרְכּ֑וֹ לֹֽא־לְאִ֣ישׁ הֹלֵ֔ךְ וְהָכִ֖ין אֶת־צַֽעֲדֽ

    Man was designed to be led by his Creator and to follow his instructions to the letter, not deviating to the right or the left. Blessing then were sure to follow. But disobedience would incur God's displeasure and punishment. Israel knew this from experience, yet they continued rebelling. God's patience comes to an end.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Judaism is not unacquainted with God's judgments. The whole history of the Jewish nation from the time of their liberation from Egypt, right up to the last prophet God sent to warn them of his displeasure, the punishment has always preceded the repentance and the blessings that flowed from that. But it never lasted....did it?

    In the Christian scriptures, there is "the great day of Yahweh" as foretold by God's ancient prophets, still to come upon the whole world of disobedient mankind. It is a final judgment and only those found doing the will of God will survive it.

    We too look forward to the Messianiac age, but through a very different lens. Jesus said that this judgment would be just like the days of Noah. (Matthew 24:37-39) The majority of mankind will ignore the warning and perish.

    He did, but he will not tolerate man's mismanagement of his earth for much longer. We were created to be earth's caretakers....and we have failed miserably to protect and preserve it. There is an accounting that every human on earth will have to make. I believe we all have the same judge.

    This is an interesting subject that I would like to explore with you.

    What is the "soul" in Hebrew? And where do Jews get the idea that they were going to heaven? I cannot find any mention of an immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures nor can I find a belief in an afterlife, except by physical, bodily resurrection back to this earth.

    The idea of an immortal soul is not scripturally Jewish......it's Greek. The idea that "Gehinnom" is a place of conscious punishment is also not Jewish as far as I can see. It was a later adoption again from the Greeks. They influenced a great deal of religious thought in their day.

    Gehinnom was the city's garbage dump where the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were thrown for disposal. Not considered worthy of a decent burial meant that these ones were not worthy of a resurrection.....no tomb inscribed with their name and family lineage meant not being remembered by God in the future resurrection.

    The view that there was punishment or reward after death was also adopted by Christendom. "Heaven and hell" as opposite destinations is not found in the Bible.

    Ezekiel 18:4....."Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die." Souls die. They are unconscious in the grave awaiting the coming of Messiah's Kingdom and a resurrection to life.

    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

    The heavens are heavens of the Lord, but the earth He gave to the children of men.
    טזהַשָּׁמַיִם שָׁ֖מַיִם לַֽיהֹוָ֑ה וְ֜הָאָ֗רֶץ נָתַ֥ן לִבְנֵי־אָדָֽם:
    17Neither will the dead praise God, nor all those who descend to the grave.
    יזלֹֽא־הַמֵּתִ֥ים יְהַֽלְלוּ־יָ֑הּ וְ֜לֹ֗א כָּל־יֹֽרְדֵ֥י דוּמָֽה: (Psalm 115:17; 146:4)

    In Adam's case.....the "soul" that was Adam died and returned to the dust. He was not told about heaven or Gehinnom. Neither was that choice put before Israel at Mt Sinai. (Deuteronomy 30:15-20) All that God offered was life or death....the same choice given to everyone. Obey and live...disobey and die. It wasn't really more complicated than that.

    Did Judaism decide to disbelieve its own scripture? or is there another explanation?
     
    #49 Deeje, Dec 6, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  10. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Since we have different bibles and different glossaries, we will never come to agreement. I didn't respond to the portions of your posts that I've already written and disagreed with you about.

    In your analogy, you are presuming that this locksmith has the ability to lose a key. But if the locksmith lost a key, then she couldn't be said to have every key in the world.

    The adversary is one of G-d's angels. Notice that G-d issued it an order and it obeyed.

    J o b 1:12 Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Behold, all that he has is in your hands; only upon him do not stretch forth your hand." Now the Adversary left the presence of the Lord.

    I've never thought about the mechanism before. I shouldn't think it would work like how humans travel. Heaven isn't a physical place, so it doesn't seem likely to me that regular human travel is applicable.

    Nope. When the text has G-d asking a question, it is NEVER because G-d doesn't know. It is more like an interrogatory statement in the form of a question. Police and lawyers use this technique all the time by asking questions to things that they already know the answer to.
     
  11. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this entire post.

    If this is true, then why did G-d give us the Atonement Laws? If we were designed to never make a mistake, how could we ever make a mistake and need atonement?
     
  12. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    There is another explanation. You might not be aware that the Hebrew bible is only half of the authoritative Jewish content. The other half is the Talmud. You are correct that the Tanakh is mostly silent on material about the afterlife. The majority of our thought comes from the Talmud, the verbal teachings that the Lord taught Moses. The Talmud never contradicts the written Law, it only expands upon it.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I said nothing about losing a key. The analogy was if a locksmith had a key that could unlock every lock in the world, would he have to unlock every lock, just because he could? If God can know everything there is to know, then he too can choose to know what he wants to know when it suits him.

    When you give creatures free will, you cannot take that freedom of choice away from them, even if you know it will be disastrous. In the case of Adam and his wife, God stepped in with a solution straight away. (Genesis 3:15) His purpose in connection with the seed would gradually be understood as more details were revealed with the passage of time.

    You stated...."There is no such thing as a rebellious angel appearing anywhere in the entire Hebrew bible."
    Then you said...
    So there are rebellious angels mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures? Agreed?

    Of course God has control of the Adversary's actions but all the same, tragedy of an enormous magnitude was permitted in Job's case....why was this rebel angel permitted to do what he did to Job?.....twice? The man's integrity under the severest test imaginable is testimony enough. God knew Job could pass this test with flying colors or he would not have permitted it.

    But in the account Job said to God...."But a man will die and he is weakened; man perishes and where is he?". . .

    "So does a man lie down and not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awaken, nor will they be aroused from their sleep.

    יבוְאִ֥ישׁ שָׁכַ֗ב וְֽלֹא־יָ֫ק֥וּם עַד־בִּלְתִּ֣י שָׁ֖מַיִם לֹ֣א יָקִ֑יצוּ וְלֹ֥א יֵעֹ֜֗רוּ מִשְּׁנָתָֽם:
    13 Would that You hide me in the grave, that You would keep me secret, until Your wrath has subsided; give me a set time and remember me.
    יגמִ֚י יִתֵּ֨ן | בִּשְׁא֬וֹל תַּצְפִּנֵ֗נִי תַּ֖סְתִּירֵנִי עַד־שׁ֣וּב אַפֶּ֑ךָ תָּ֚שִֽׁית לִ֖י חֹ֣ק וְתִזְכְּרֵֽנִי:
    14 If a man dies, will he live? All the days of my lifespan, I will hope, until the coming of my passing.
    ידאִם־יָמ֥וּת גֶּ֗בֶר הֲיִ֫חְיֶ֥ה כָּל־יְמֵ֣י צְבָאִ֣י אֲיַחֵ֑ל עַד־בּ֜וֹ֗א חֲלִיפָתִֽי:
    15 Call and I will answer You; You desire the work of Your hands.
    תִּקְרָא וְאָֽנֹכִ֣י אֶֽעֱנֶ֑ךָּ לְֽמַֽעֲשֵׂ֖ה יָדֶ֣יךָ תִכְסֹֽף:" (Job 14:12-15)

    What is Job asking here? He is unaware of the Adversary's taunts or God's permission of an awful test.
    He is asking God to hide him in the grave until his anger has subsided. He obviously thinks that God is punishing him for something he is unaware of. But his belief in the resurrection is clear...there is a set time for God to remember him. He expected God to call him from his sleep and restore his life.

    Do you get a different understanding from reading Job?

    That is your prerogative of course. It is what my study of the Bible has revealed. It all makes sense to me.

    In the Hebrew scriptures, angels are said to interact with humans in materialized form (eating and drinking what was offered to them by both Abraham at Mamre, and later by Lot in Sodom (Genesis 18 & 19) so spirit creatures apparently have the ability to materialize and dematerialize at will. The angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel as a man. (Daniel 9:20-22)

    After the disobedient angels ("sons (plural) of the true God" who joined the Adversary in rebelling against God) caused trouble in Noah's day (Genesis 6:2) and influenced mankind in the worst way, he took that ability away from the rebels whilst still allowing faithful angels to do their job. Since people could be demon possessed in Bible times, it is obvious that wicked spirits are still with us, causing trouble, but in a more controlled way. It seems as if the spirit realm is not that far away from us. Probably like stepping through a doorway....or having some kind of control over matter....? Its fascinating anyways.

    The law was given long after man's fall in Eden. We were never designed to make mistakes, so when Adam and his wife deliberately broke the only law there was at the time, they set their children up for a life of sin. This then required God to set some rules in place. Humans would have a set of laws that were not negotiable.
    Atonement, according to the law, was to offer God's people temporary forgiveness of their sins until the seed of promise came to offer the ultimate sacrifice, cancelling out Adam's debt forever. You know that we believe that the seed was Jesus Christ....?


    I see.....so the Hebrew Scriptures form only half of what you believe? If God gave Moses the Tanakh, why was there a need to for the Talmud? Weren't God's laws clearly outlined in the Law of Moses? What more did Israel need to know?

    If the Tanakh is silent on the afterlife, then perhaps that was because there is no afterlife to speak of? If the Talmud does not contradict the Tanakh then how do you know it doesn't, if the Tanakh does not speak of an afterlife at all?

    If, e.g. God told Adam that he would simply return to the dust when he died, if there was an afterlife (heaven or Gehinnom) wouldn't that make God remiss for not warning him of such dire consequences?

    Since Adam's sin was responsible for the death of the entire human race, he was surely deserving of the greatest punishment possible...? Yet God told him he would simply go back to where he came from....back to the dust. Would it be unthinkable that God would do the same to any humans who sin deliberately? Where were we before our parents conceived us? We simply did not exist.....the Bible says that the wicked will suffer eternal death as the opposite to eternal life. That makes perfect sense to me. It also makes sense as to why Israel's law included no attempts to contact the dead under penalty of death. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If these were really the spirits of our dead loved ones, why would death require that we do not communicate with them? It only makes sense if the spirits are not who they claim to be. It seems as if the spirit realm, like the physical realm, has its share of bad guys.
     
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