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Featured When do you Think The Great Deception Started?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Winzand's post is a little esoteric. Don't know why I'm defending it but more or less I'm interested in the idea.

    We were created as you say imperfect. So our senses, therefore perception is imperfect.

    Corruption, imperfection... Kind of close to the same thing. Corruption is caused by introducing imperfection, which according to you happened at the beginning.

    The imperfect of man who was created by God allows man to be corrupted.

    As as I pointed out in Joshua 9, one should trust in God and not their perception.
    No problem really. I'm just curious about the idea in the OP.

    I followed a Hindu Guru from India for a number of years in my younger days. So this was something I recalled from satsang, not directly from the Vedas.
     
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  2. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    The Great Deception began the first time someone claimed that there is a god and that they knew what this god wants.
     
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  3. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    The great deception is to turn people against God by whatever means. Similar to what Satan did deceiving Eve into disobeying God.
     
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  4. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    Where did the deception start? We have a Mormon scripture Moses 5: 13 which says:

    And Satan came among them [Adam, Eve, and their children], saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

    So Satan told the children of Adam and Eve to not believe what their parents taught about God and the deception began.

    In my LDS (Mormon) scriptures (Bible and Book of Mormon in particular) there are historical accounts and prophesies of future events that demonstrate community and national cycles of general godliness and then rejection of God, then tragedy, then humility and repentance, then acceptance of God, and then rejection, and the cycle repeats. I'm being very, very general in that statement.

    Prophesies say that the closer we get to the return of Jesus Christ, the more sin there will be in the world. There will be greater sexual promiscuity and perversion, more violence, more war, more hatred, less faith in God, more governmental corruption, and more greed. Love will wax cold. There will be an increase in natural disaters. Secret sins will be discovered and "spoken from the housetops". These are a few of the things that I believe will happen. As I look back over the past 50 years, I believe much of this has happened and continues to happen. Unfortunately, many today see some of this deterioration as progress. I see it as the expected fulfillment of prophesy as the world slips further away from God and the return of the Savior nears.

    My church's First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave a formal and documented warning in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" :

    WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

    I believe the above to be a serious warning from real prophets.

    Having said that, I don't believe in gloom and doom or a negative attitude towards the end times. I believe there is much good and much love in the world and there will continue to be. I believe we should accentuate the positive and always look for and celebrate the good.
     
    #24 Scott C., Dec 1, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    First, that idea isn't present in Greek religious thought, hence not in Roman either. The Greek idea is that the human is essentially good, and that knowledge and wisdom can protect us from bad ways. They rubbed it in with underworld torments for those who offended the god of Olympus, and although the picture of the morality of the gods is not a little confusing, Zeus was the upholder and rewarder of proper conduct.

    The Greeks also had an idea (traceable to the so-called Myth of Er in Plato, the tale of a soldier who was so near death on the battlefield, his soul traveled to the Underworld, and returned to report the experience: judgment of the arriving souls of the newly dead, some rewarded in the Elysian fields, others tormented in Tartarus, and others (including those whose punishment was complete) given another chance in a next life. The parallels between this and later Christian ideas of the afterlife are obvious.

    Second, if you >look closely at the text of Genesis<, you'll find that it makes no mention of a Fall of Man, sin, original sin, disobedience, death entering the world, the need of a redeemer, or even a serpent who lies. The Human Born Sinful and Vile interpretation of the Garden Tale is from later.

    The idea that the sins of the parent may be visited on the child (with obvious parallels to 'original sin') is mentioned in Ezekiel 18 in order to state specifically that there's no such thing:

    20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
    But the fact that it was necessary to deny the proposition seems to suggest that such a theme existed in Jewish thought at that time.

    As mentioned in that link above, the hitching of the Garden story to the Fall of Man may have occurred in Alexandria (where Greek and Jewish ideas mixed freely) towards the end of the 2nd century BCE. Someone may know whether it had antecedents outside of that time and place.
     
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  6. Straw Dog

    Straw Dog Well-Known Member

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    In this human being's opinion, the art of deception began well before written history. Deception is prehistorical and proto-religious. It began as soon as some members of a powerful tribe gained access to knowledge/ technology that they either wished to deny the other members or actively exploited against them. We shouldn't necessarily feel unwarranted guilt over our human nature, but this mastercraft of illusion and deception does begin to exist within human consciousness.
     
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  7. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    The great deception occurred at the time when evolving bipedal primates had too much time on their hands and abused their free time by inventing a magic sky daddy.
     
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  8. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Before that religious text has been written, obviously.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  9. JoeEcho

    JoeEcho New Member

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    In the beginning and so on and so forth.......
     
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  10. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Nope, man's woes started when G-d first created Adam. G-d initially created this man without a helpmate. I think Adam was very woeful without a wife.

    We can speculate 'what-ifs'until the cows come home, but it won't bring any knowledge. The story written as-is tells a meaningful story.

    I agree with you. This was their first exercise of freewill.

    The snake wasn't the adversary, it was just a talking snake.

    Several things here. First, the Eden story ended when the humans left the garden (chapter 3). Second, the Eden story was just that...a story. It isn't literally true. It's a midrash, a story told by G-d to make a point(s).

    Why the doom and gloom? G-d creates this world for our pleasure. You need to taste every fruit that G-d creates and see every sunset that He creates. You have all the goodness that G-d does to look forward to. G-d creates us, so that He can share Creation with us.
     
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  11. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    According to the dictionary:
    Corruption means: 1) the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt; 2) moral perversion; depravity 3) perversion of integrity 4) corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
    Imperfection means: 1) of, relating to, or characterized by defects or weaknesses such as imperfect vision 2) not perfect; lacking completeness: such as imperfect knowledge.

    To claim that these two words are the same is to ignore the dictionary meaning of the words and to make up your own definitions. Want to try again?
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In the period after God created Adam, there was much for him to learn. The animals were brought to Adam and he was to give them an appropriate name. He was no doubt aware that all the other creatures who shared the garden had mates, and he was the only one who didn't have one. Since he had to become a family head, he needed to be prepared for the responsibilities of that role and since he had no earthly parents, all his education had to come from his Creator.

    So God not only formed a mate for him but took his own DNA to create her, performing what was actually the first surgery.

    It is indeed meaningful and has much to teach us about God and his relationship with humans. It gives us an idea of what God expected as their Sovereign and how their decision impacted on all of us as their offspring.

    It is interesting that each one made a bad choice but for entirely different reasons.

    Snakes don't talk unless someone makes them. We know from scripture that God made Baalam's donkey talk, but that was from God. The snake lied about God so it is obvious that whoever made it speak had bad intentions.

    The Eden story began in the garden and continued beyond their expulsion from God's presence. The full implications of what they did was seen in man's propensity to ignore God in favor of doing his own thing.

    Access to the "tree of life" was denied, leaving no way for the humans to continue living.....humanity has been dying because of it ever since. Death was never even mentioned in Eden except as a penalty for disobedience. No disobedience would have resulted in everlasting life here on earth for Adam's family and they would have "filled the earth" with righteous children instead of ones prone to sin, aging and death.

    The Bible for Christians is one complete story. It is true that God created the earth for us an we for the earth, but like all stories it has to have a plot. The Hebrew writings are the beginning and up to the middle, leading to Messiah's arrival in 29CE. The Greek scriptures contain vital truths about the fulfillment of Bible prophesy and about the "new covenant" foretold by Jeremiah, and the conclusion of the present times. There is no point in having half a Bible. We need all of the scriptures to know how it ends....and where we stand at the finale.

    What are Jews looking forward to?
     
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  13. JoeEcho

    JoeEcho New Member

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    The Great Deception actually predates the Holy Bible however that is a bit of a misnomer as time is not linear.
     
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  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Not necessary. I think you misunderstood my point.

    You don't see mankind as corrupt?
     
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  15. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Nope. From the beginning, G-d purposefully created humans as good with a predilection for evil. No action by a created being can alter the Creator's creations.

    G-d knew that we would make mistakes, He creates us this way. That's why He gave us Teshuvah, the Laws of Atonement. If G-d meant to create us as perfect, then it would have been pointless for G-d to give those Laws to us, indeed pointless for Him to give us any Laws.
     
  16. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Do you think G-d was surprised by their choices? That G-d didn't know until they did it?
     
  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Thank you, I kind of assumed this to be your position. I doubt any further explanation would hold much interest for you in this case.
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God, as an omniscient being can know whatever he chooses to know, but because he made humans with free will (part of being made in God's image) he allowed them to make their own choices, each with a different outcome. Animals are governed largely by instinct, but humans have the same logic and reasoning capacity as their Creator. They can make decisions based on what they know to be right. There was only one negative command in Eden and no reason at all to transgress it.....until a third party with a wicked motive stepped into the picture and started asking the right questions....planting seeds of doubt.

    There were several possible scenarios, so whatever they chose, God was ready with a solution.

    Have you ever considered what would have happened if the woman had said no to the temptation? Or if Adam had refused his wife's offer? How do you think God would have responded then? :shrug:

    We believe that God's adversary was the voice behind the serpent (according to Christian scripture), so he targeted the woman when she was alone. As the younger and less experienced of the pair, he appealed to what appealed to him....self interest. In saying to the woman that eating the fruit would result in her 'being like God', he was actually voicing his own ambitions. He wanted to be a god to someone....and here were lower beings who could give him what he craved. She fell for his twisted reasoning, imagining that God had lied and was keeping something desirable away from them.
    She obviously waited for the instant death that she may have expected but when it didn't happen, she offered some of the fruit to Adam when he returned.

    Imagine what was running through his mind? What was he to do? He had waited so long for a mate and now he was faced with losing her. Did he know that death was not instant but a slow and painful decline into aging and sickness? We don't know. But the adversary knew he could possibly get to the man through the woman, so he did not target Adam first, (Adam would more than likely have resisted the offer) but he caused him to divide his loyalties. Divide and conquer has been the adversary's MO all along.

    Christian scripture puts the blame for man's fall on Adam, not the woman. (Romans 5:12) As family head, it was his role to stick to God's law regardless of what family members decided to do with their own free will, and to keep his family in line. He failed in this respect and ultimately left his children a lasting legacy...an awful inheritance that no human could fix.....sin and all the things that result from it. Within one generation, a murderer was produced.

    We have all been dying ever since, yet death is as foreign and unnatural to us now as it has always been. We were simply not created to experience it. God made the way for humanity to once again...live forever in paradise conditions on earth through the ultimate sacrifice of his son's life in exchange for ours. He is the appointed redeemer.

    What is the Jewish expectation?
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Active Member

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    We are human.......
    we have serious tendencies toward INFERIORITY AND INSECURITY......
    much of our deception rises up out of those two problems...........

    Yesterday I was reading the near death experience account of Black Elk.........
    and I could not rule out one word that Black Elk wrote about his own NDE......
    I try my best to not nail down Messiah Yeshua -Jesus to dealing with people from other nations in a way that fits with my own narrow view of what I know a little bit about............

    Eve and Adam...... had a tendency toward Insecurity.... and a sense of Inferiority.......
    which led them to take of a tree.... that I suspect was like a PROGRAM......
    that altered even our human DNA.......
    and certainly the way that we process information...........

    Personally.... I will not be at all surprised to find out after I die.... that perhaps Black Elk may have been Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah or one of the prophets of Judaism reincarnated..........
    That is a possibility that is simply above my own Security Clearance Level......

    Native American Black Elk's Near-Death Experiences

    Native American Black Elk's Near-Death Experiences
     
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  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Matthew 8:5-13 - Israel are chosen from out of the nations (Revelation 7:3-8).
    Matthew 23:34 - Yeshua sends many prophets; who stand against the synagogues i.e. Rabbinic Judaism.

    In other words why not respect Black Elk for his own statements; justify each person by their own word (Matthew 12:37), not someone else's.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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