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When certain Christians go too far

Hi all,

Before I go on I'd like to say that I am a Christian. Okay, here's a topic that really gets me cheezed off. I know Christains who label things like Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings as Satanic and evil. I've heard of Christains who label rock music evil. I've seen on TV Christians with so much hate in their eyes for homosexuals (don't get me wrong, I don't think homosexuality is good), which is plain wrong to hate anyone else (another human being) homo or not. There are plenty more examples I can assure you. Why are these people so extreme, so fundimental?

Personally, I think they are wrong, and have taken things in the Christian faith that are not "primary" too far. They are putting too much emphasis on the sideline details, and not the main thing: Jesus Christ!

Once more they give us good Christians a bad name and a "nutbag" reputation!
 

Alaric

Active Member
But how much flexibility is there really? Doesn't true Christianity require you to focus on God, live by God's rules, etc - which would mean that anything that contradicts it should be discouraged? I certainly understand that you don't want to hate things, but doesn't your tolerance just mean you don't take God's message seriously?

Surely, you're either a fundamentalist, an atheist, or someone who hasn't made up his mind?
 

zipo29

Member
I know exactly what you mean flame. I can't stop it instead of being nitpicky and hating. They should in fact be acting Like JESUS and loving their neghibors and showing them compasion. Instead of worrying about material things in life we should be out there sharing the treasure and blessings the Jesus has to offer.
 

quick

Member
zipo29 said:
I know exactly what you mean flame. I can't stop it instead of being nitpicky and hating. They should in fact be acting Like JESUS and loving their neghibors and showing them compasion. Instead of worrying about material things in life we should be out there sharing the treasure and blessings the Jesus has to offer.

Micah 6:8

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.


To act justly, you simply cannot tolerate everything and love sin. The old saying is still true--hate sin, love the sinner. But, to love the sinner, you must try to help him break the death grip of sin, and that may entail saying to him that his life style is not right. He will resent this, just like Israel resented the Old Testament prophets and killed Jesus, but it still must be said. That is where the Christian and the non-Christian really hit a snag.


Before I became a Christian, it used to annoy me even to sit in the room with someone I knew was a Christian and who knew I was not a Christian. Darkness runs from the light. I feel differently now.

Christianity is about grace and forgiveness, and as such is very attractive; unfortunately, to receive the forgiveness, one must accept Christ and repent--there is the rub.
 
Alaric,

Dude, guess what? I am a Christian, not a fundimentalist, I have made up my mind, and I'm obviously not an Atheist.

Here's my second question: How the hell did you come up with that conclusion? Really?

The Christian faith is incredibly flexible, that is one of the reasons why it has and is spreading so far and fast. In countries where the faith is new, the people often have remanents of their old religion still ligering on in their society. You may say that is bad, but they're learning about God and Jesus, and they're acknowledging Jesus as their saviour - which is the important thing right?

As for anything that contradicts God's word should be discouraged, well, guess what buddy, every day you do plenty that should be discouraged. We all do! I'm tolerant of a lot, in this day and age I think you have to be tolerant to an extent, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Don't get me wrong that I am not tolerant of plenty of things. But to say that because of my tolerance I am not taking the laws of God seriously, that is quite wrong. When it comes to Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings, I think I'm tolerant of harmless things. Alaric, I think you may be the fundimentalist.

As for zipo29, I think you're responding to the hate I saw some Christians had. Your response could not have been more truthful.

Quick, lets not get off the subject too much eh?
 
The easiest way to find an answer for Christians is to look in the Bible. So why vary from the exact wording? I couldnt tell ya exactly but i got a few ideas :

-Fear of wrong interpretation
-Fear of being hypocritical
-Satisfying a need for something stablea nd reliable, and what better than going word for word from a book many people live by?

Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head, nothing huge.
 

Alaric

Active Member
Flamethrower,
Well that sure provoked a reaction! :smile: I'll admit I was being deliberately unnuanced, but I still think it's a valid point. So many people I have known have called themselves Christian, but have no real idea of what that means; they would think it somehow makes sense to believe in Jesus but not the Resurrection, and certainly not Genesis or any of that, without realising that it's all part and parcel of the same thing. Jesus' message has no truth in it whatsoever unless he really did rise again and all the Biblical stories preceding him were true. God requires devotion and unquestioning obedience, He requires His will done on earth, so it seems natural that true Christians would be intolerant of unChristian things. Considering the consequences of eternal damnation, is it possible for a Christian to take Christianity too far?

The problem with Christianity is its message is about God, not man's responsibility to man. The Christian is only good his neighbours because they think God wants him to be. It's always "Be good to your neighbours and you'll go to heaven" rather than "Be good to your neighbours and you will make them happy." So, if you respect other people's right to write or read Harry Potter, or to be gay, or to express themselves with heavy metal music, then you're being a good person, rather than a good God-worshipper.

You need to decide whether you want to be moral, in which case God's message, and even His existence, is irrelevant, or you want to just do whatever He wants. Perhaps your tolerance and humanity is just your inner humanist trying to fight its way out of the morass of Christian ideas in your head...? Maybe...? :goodjob: *prepares to duck again*
 
Alaric,

Didn't mean to bite your head off, but you don't seem to be understanding what I mean. Furthermore, you are turning out to be one of those extreme Christians yourself!

What it looks to me you are saying, is that all non Christain things, no matter what they may be, and all non Christian related things are not to be tolerated by any Christians and all Christians should steer clear of them. Hey man, I think most things in this world aren't Christian. But it doesn't mean they're bad. So is "stairway to heaven" by Led Zepplin evil and Satanic is it? No, it's fantastic poetry put to heavy 70's rock. Oh no, it isn't Christian, so that means it is evil... oh what a shame.

Harry Potter, the childrens book has no mention of Christianity in it, but is choc full of Christian messages (Dumbledore once said in the 1st HP book "ask and you shall recieve", almost repeating word for word Jesus' words). But it is evil, because it doesn't have any Christians in it.

Same goes for The Lord of the Rings, even though the author was a devout Catholic.

And what about the gay people getting abused on TV by so called Christians. Which is worse, they gay people or the un-ending hate of the "Christians".

You're saying to me that I don't know what being a Christian is all about. Man you're so wrong. I've done a 3 month course on what Christianity is about! And I am always in contact with many Christain friends, those who don't hate other people, or judge. Sorry mate, but it looks like you're the extremist. Not to mention I have no idea where you get all this infomation about me from; must be assumption? Yeah asumption, that's real accurate.
 
Alaric said:
Jesus' message has no truth in it whatsoever unless he really did rise again and all the Biblical stories preceding him were true.
I agree with most of what you said, Alaric, except this part. I think Jesus' basic philosophy (don't worry about tomorrow, be good to others, love your enemies) has much truth in it, whether or not he was divine.
 
To be just you certainly can NOT tolerate everything. but being intolerant of everything is just as unjust as letting everything slide. my point is simple if your pride/faith requires you to lay others low to build yourself up, it isn't pride/faith. it's hate, man. just petty chilidish ignorant hate.
and at no point does the bible say "And the Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin shall be upon ye, and they shall rocketh, but be tempted not, for they are evil.' so the entire rock music thing seems like a lot of people trying to blow smoke up the proverbial tailpipe of society.
AND: what really cheeses me off about fundies:not everyone is christian! stop trying to enforce laws that sssume we all are. that's just plain dumb.
 
hey

this is a very valid debate for today society isnt it. hey alaric,

"The problem with Christianity is its message is about God, not man's responsibility to man. The Christian is only good his neighbours because they think God wants him to be. It's always "Be good to your neighbours and you'll go to heaven" rather than "Be good to your neighbours and you will make them happy." So, if you respect other people's right to write or read Harry Potter, or to be gay, or to express themselves with heavy metal music, then you're being a good person, rather than a good God-worshipper."
thers a few problems here, the christian message is to love your neighbour because you are commanded to by God and because it is his desire for people be like this in society. this has to start somewhere. if abiding to the christian message creates a society where people LOve God and genuinely love each other and the two acts rest on eachother.
And also how does God become irrelevant if we are moral? morals are irrelevant without God because he provides us with what being moral is through his commands. western society doesn't get its morals from such things as democracy. and anyway IF there is no God to hold us accountable for our actions (and morals) we certainly dont owe our fellow man anything because our neighbour didn't create us.
please reply to what i think about your comments alaric

back to the original debate i think christians are not supposed to judge things but they are to question them theres a difference. for instance harry potter is not inherently evil unless it speaks against God or causes human suffering. Know harry potter to my knowledge doesnt speak against God or blaspheme but it has been shown to give many children nightmares and cause them to question there immature faith in God and believe in wizardry and jump of two storey buildings with abroom held betwwen there legs. Harry potter evil? probably not. beneficial to our lives? not really!

as for lord of the rings: the author of this book was devoutly christian and the underlying message of the lotr books is in fact one about sin and temptation (the ring) that most christians relate to.

i believe that a good christian should question things that they feel imsure about and ask is it beneficial to their worship of God (the way the live) and does it help others to understand more about God and personally develop a relationship with God.
So yes to common sense and no to extremism
test everything though and rationalise according to God s word and Jesus teachings.
chamberlain
 

Alaric

Active Member
Flamethrower, I hope you're right - but how do you know when you're just seeing only the parts of Christianity that fit in with modern day morality and rational thought, and ignoring the ugly bits? He flooded the world because people were having too much fun, remember. Of course unChristian things aren't evil, but doesn't that mean that Christianity is wrong? From what I've read, God is a harsh taskmaster - you don't just get to say "But if God hated that, it would be totally unreasonable, so He must be okay with it," because then you're using some other standard by which to judge God. If you believe that God is good, and that He will reward those loyal to Him and punish the disobedient, then you don't just get to do unChristian things because you feel like it - unless you want to be moral, rational and have some fun, of course, and are willing to cross your fingers and hope that Hell isn't all that bad.

Chamberlain,
You say that we should love our neighbour because God commanded it. Wouldn't you say that being good to people is a good idea in it's own right? That is, it helps create a better society? Lets love our neighbours for ourselves, not God.

Regarding morality, I assume that if I punched you in the face for fun, you would think that was an immoral act. Why? Surely not (just) because God wouldn't want it - it caused you pain. Furthermore, imagine a society in which everyone just punched each other when they felt like it - we would soon all agree that it was a bad thing, and make a rule against punching people. The ones that did it would be punished by the rest of us. The act of punching had thereby become immoral. But, I would say it was always immoral, because the person who did the punching most likely would not have wanted others to punch him, so he knew he was doing something wrong. See - God has nothing to do with it. If God said that punching was in fact moral, then God would be wrong. God's opinion is irrelevant.
 
Alaric,

Let me first fill you in on some history...
According to the bible, Gods reason for flooding the world was because peolple were killing eachother and prostituting NOT because they were having to much FUN!
Now most UNCHRISTIAN things are wrong. Just look at the ten commandments. Most people in jail are there because they have broken one of our modern laws which is modeled on a commandment (eg armed robbery- thou shalt not steal, or murder in the first degree- thou shalt not kill?)
Now the only thing i do agree with is that God is a harsh taskmaster. In fact he is the HARDEST taskmaster. It is his nature to be completely just. Complete justice would be that any defiance against God (sin) is punishable by death. However as he is also a God of compassion and offered a sacrifice to atone for all of our sins (jesus christ).
Now as for a better society i would say that christianity offers that best model ive yet seen. Just because christians cant always stick to it doesnt mean it isnt the best way? Dont you think God desire better society for us and if his rules are applied to that will happen?
Lastly back to loving your neighbour as i have already explained "morals are irrelevant without God because he provides us with what being moral is through his commands" and "IF there is no God to hold us accountable for our actions (and morals) we certainly dont owe our fellow man anything because our neighbour didn't create us." So people going around punching each other look at it this way- we created computers right, we programed them for a certain function am I right? When one part of the computer does something wrong it tells us in an alert. This it was program to do WHEN IT WAS MADE. In the same way we have a concience that God instilled in us when we created it isnt something that evolved out of a cocktail of chemicals in our brain. Just the same way love isn't a chemical, thats what separates us from the animals? Wouldn't you agree?
 
If super advanced aliens came down to our planet, they would probably have all kinds of superior intellectual abilities and experience emotions 100 times greater than love which we can't even imagine....some of them might say "See how primitve all these humans are? The emotions WE experience aren't just chemicals in our brains, like it is with all these creatures on Earth....they do not even experience some of our emotions! It's what seperates us from humans and other Earthlings."

Love is a bunch of chemicals in our brains, but most people refuse to believe it because we like to put ourselves up on a pedestal from all other life. Besides, what's wrong with chemicals? Does the fact that love and other emotions are a bunch of biochemistry mean we should reject emotions? Does it make them any less real to us? Of course we shouldn't reject our emotions...that would be like rejecting our eyes or our hands.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Christian values and secular laws do indeed run parallel at many times, but we must understand that 'do not kill' has much more purpose in society than simply fullfilling religious doctrine. Think of the chaos that would ensue. Bottom line, secular laws are made to be logically fair and beneficical to society. If something the bible says happens to fit this criteria (aka, do not kill) great. However there are many things that don't (no homosexuality), and we must recognize this and remedy it.
 
How about we imagine what would happen to society if everyone was gay?
It doesn't really add to the human race does it?
In fact if you are gay you tend not to produce offspring.
I think not being gay is a fairly healthy law for society.

?
 
It either is ok for all of us to be gay or for none of us to be gay. If half of us were gay and the other half wanted to switch sides then the human race would be screwed. Thats the way you need to look at it.
 
chamberlain-- I don't follow that logic at all. As it is, some people are gay, and I highly doubt that this minority of gays is detrimental, especially considering that our population is way out of hand.
 
I am not talking about or even care for statistics. I thought we were talking about ethics. As i said above i am not talking about a grey concept. Its black and white, if its ok to be gay because our population is out of control then i guess abortion is also is it?
Because that is the same thing. Being gay is just fulfilling a perverted desire just as abortion is having fun without taking responsibility for our society.
 
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