What's Your Favorite Fairytale?

[Twilight Hue]

Ha! That reminds me of that old Green Jelly song about the three little pigs... a much loved twist for most 90s kids.

I first heard that on Dr. Demento.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm fond of Paradise Lost and how it is Satan who is admirable and greatly wronged in his fight against a cold, cruel, and absent tyrant that is god.

Interesting. I am a big fan of Paradise Lost, but that's not how I see Satan at all.

William Blake and Percy Shelley both shared your interpretation, so I'm not saying you’re in good company. But Satan in Milton's epic is a hero only in the classical, tragic sense. His pride and his ferocious defiance are the cause of all his suffering. He has one admirable quality and that is courage, but he is the architect of all his own sorrow, and he sets out to corrupt the world; so great is his Fury at God that he wants to undo all his work. All he has to do is submit to God, and he will be redeemed, but his pride won't let him.

I do also love the Gustav Dore illustrations; Dore certainly saw Satan's nobility and majesty. Some historical context might be helpful here; to Milton, who sided with the Parliamentarians during the English Civil War, the nobility and majesty of the Crown of England was Satanic. And not in a good way.

 

[exchemist]

I don't remember that particular story, but I do remember being enchanted with her artwork. I had a paper doll set from The Tale of Tom Kitten that I just loved...

Do try to get hold of "The Tailor of Gloucester" if you can. It's a lovely story, set in the c.18th, in the snowy city, just before Christmas.

 

[ChristineM]

Do try to get hold of "The Tailor of Gloucester" if you can. It's a lovely story, set in the c.18th, in the snowy city, just before Christmas.

@JustGeorge


Its available for free download at Gutenberg
The Tailor of Gloucester by Beatrix Potter

 

[JustGeorge]

@JustGeorge


Its available for free download at Gutenberg
The Tailor of Gloucester by Beatrix Potter

Thank you!

 

[ChristineM]

Thank you!

Gutenberg has thousands of books out of copyright, many classics.
Project Gutenberg

 

[Vinayaka]

What is it about that story you find enlightening or heartwarming?

I remember having a book about the three billygoats gruff and the troll under the bridge I enjoyed reading as a child...

We often acted that out with the kids. I'd be the troll, hide under a blanket, and threaten to eat them. Great fun.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've never read that particular work, but I have read others with that theme, and always enjoyed pondering that line of thought.

It's great. And Satan is such an awesome character in it. Very comparable to Prometheus.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All he has to do is submit to God, and he will be redeemed, but his pride won't let him.

That's what makes him awesome. Why is god worthy of worship and submission? Why is submission good?

Some historical context might be helpful here; to Milton, who sided with the Parliamentarians during the English Civil War, the nobility and majesty of the Crown of England was Satanic. And not in a good way.

I'm very aware of Milton, the circumstances surrounding it, and creating a character more in line with his Puritan views, with Satan being a character who has an appeal but is ultimately damned due to what makes him appealing (a mentality that does exist still in Evangelical Protestantism).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for something from childhood, the only thing that draws strong enough memories to actually remember it is the Jungle Book.
And Gargoyles, but I think I like it better being older because I can pick up the Shakespearean references and more subtle parts of the show.
And Star Wars, though I've since moved onto Star Trek. But I Star Wars still holds a special place.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As for something from childhood, the only thing that draws strong enough memories to actually remember it is the Jungle Book.
And Gargoyles, but I think I like it better being older because I can pick up the Shakespearean references and more subtle parts of the show.
And Star Wars, though I've since moved onto Star Trek. But I Star Wars still holds a special place.

I loved the Jungle Book growing up. The book itself. Not any of the movies made from it.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That's what makes him awesome. Why is god worthy of worship and submission? Why is submission good?

I'm very aware of Milton, the circumstances surrounding it, and creating a character more in line with his Puritan views, with Satan being a character who has an appeal but is ultimately damned due to what makes him appealing (a mentality that does exist still in Evangelical Protestantism).

Everything about Milton’s epic is awesome, including Satan’s character.

So, why is God worthy of submission?

God’s worthiness isn’t the issue really. Satan’s character is very human, and so we are easily able to identify with him. God’s is unknowable, and is sensed only through seeing creation - and the poem - as a whole.

The dilemma faced by Satan, and by Eve, and Adam, is that unless they submit to God’s will, they will never know peace. Pride is a self created prison, and humility is the key to the only freedom we can ever know.

Many readers down the centuries identify with Satan’s assertion that it is better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. But is it? Milton didn’t think so.

Is Milton’s God a tyrant? I suspect if Milton were here he would say no, he is infinite love and justice. His is the only power worthy of worship - no earthly power is or was.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Everything about Milton’s epic is awesome, including Satan’s character.

So, why is God worthy of submission?

God’s worthiness isn’t the issue really. Satan’s character is very human, and so we are easily able to identify with him. God’s is unknowable, and is sensed only through seeing creation - and the poem - as a whole.

The dilemma faced by Satan, and by Eve, and Adam, is that unless they submit to God’s will, they will never know peace. Pride is a self created prison, and humility is the key to the only freedom we can ever know.

Many readers down the centuries identify with Satan’s assertion that it is better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. But is it? Milton didn’t think so.

Is Milton’s God a tyrant? I suspect if Milton were here he would say no, he is infinite love and justice. His is the only power worthy of worship - no earthly power is or was.

I don't disagree with any of that. But why is submission to god good? Why is god good? Why is the obedience he expects good? Is the peace of going along with it actually worth it? Or is it better to free from it all regardless the consequences?
Satan represents a freedom, and that it is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I don't disagree with any of that. But why is submission to god good? Why is god good? Why is the obedience he expects good? Is the peace of going along with it actually worth it? Or is it better to free from it all regardless the consequences?
Satan represents a freedom, and that it is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

It’s up to each reader to answer these questions for him or herself, I suppose. It’s a matter of that old chestnut, free will. What is freedom, and what is it worth? How much freedom can we truly know, if we are enslaved by our own self will?

One of Milton’s stated aims in writing the epic was, “to justify the ways of God to man”. You can judge for yourself how well he succeeded, or how far he fell short.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One of Milton’s stated aims in writing the epic was, “to justify the ways of God to man”. You can judge for yourself how well he succeeded, or how far he fell short.

I think he made Satan too much like Prometheus for that to have succeeded. But, to someone who worships Zeus, Zeus is already justified. And I feel it's probably much the same with Paradise, with one's views of Jehovah and Satan largely determining Milton's success in that statement.