Whats wrong here?

[Jake1001]

I understand why no in in the Dir will discuss with you. A dir is supposed to be for someone that practices and believes in the religion and clearly you don't.

From Wilkapedia

16% of the world's population is not affiliated with a religion, while 84% are affiliated.[9] Furthermore, the global study noted that many of the unaffiliated, which include atheists and agnostics, still have various religious beliefs and practices.

Clearly religion is not obsolete but transforming. As to whether man invented god or god invented man all you need to do is prove your belief not deny another's belief.

I have to disagree Mr. Hikes. I believe my views represent many Jews and the future of Judaism. It is a shame that I am not treated well in the DIR.

 

[Jake1001]

Its important to understand that the 'confession' of faith is one thing and the narrative that embodies it is another, and not on the same level.

The word “confession” especially in parenthesis is not one often used in Judaism. But I agree with your sentiment and think that I as well as the members of the DIR have a lot to learn about tolerance.

 

[Rival]

I have to disagree Mr. Hikes. I believe my views represent many Jews and the future of Judaism. It is a shame that I am not treated well in the DIR.

They don't seem to represent this, as the Reform movement is losing members and Orthodoxy is growing.

Orthodox Will Dominate American Jewry In Coming Decades

The Ultra-Orthodox Will Determine Israel’s Political Future

 

[Jake1001]

The term Rabi wasn't introduced until the 1st century so they couldn't have written the TaNaKh

In that they didn't, I would have to say that the Prophets and others wrote it under the command of G-d or a scribe wrote it was the Prophet spoke.

G-d created man in His image. Man didn't like the terms so they created their gods in their image. IMV

Hi Ken, I believe your timeline is correct, however your theory about the Bible being written under the command of G-d is highly speculative. Are you a Conservative Christian?

 

[Jake1001]

They don't seem to represent this, as the Reform movement is losing members and Orthodoxy is growing.

Orthodox Will Dominate American Jewry In Coming Decades

The Ultra-Orthodox Will Determine Israel’s Political Future

Hi Rival, checking the source of your data.It is the Forward, an OJ source. Like the fox watching the henhouse. Of course Israel is different than the US. Pew is also Conservative.

 

[Rival]

Hi Rival, checking the source of your data.

Pew research.

 

[Jake1001]

"Man invented God" is a statement you cannot prove. The existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven.

God works most often through human hands. Why should it suprise us that human beings wrote the sacred texts? The fact that the Torah was written by men doesn't necessarily exclude God from the picture.

Glad you brought this here. It is a far, far more appropriate forum than the DIR.

Agreed G-d is not necessarily excluded. But who/what is G-d ? Its deeply personal.

 

[Jake1001]

The Rabbis are simply the direct successors to the Pharisees, who were the successors of the elders/judges that the Torah describes.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire Tanakh was written by Rabbis. It was also written by prophets, historians, poets, playwrights, etc.

Agreed, thanks for the correction. Also, scribes.

 

[Jake1001]

Would have given it a thumbs up, save for basted with anger.

Whose anger? Bible, OP or quoted post ?

 

[Nova2216]

Just a thought:
Men wrote the bible.
Men (and women) are the children of God.
Do children ever misbehave?

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Jake1001]

No doubt men wrote the bible and that cannot be denied.

We must ask - How men wrote the bible?

By a miracle the Holy Spirit led the apostles to write the words of Jesus in epistles (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

The things those men wrote are the words of the Lord (2Peter 1:20,21) (1Cor. 14:37).

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Some believe / Some do not (Acts 28:24).

You’ve gone down a different rabbit hole. To each his own. I can be tolerant in a debate forum.

 

[Jake1001]

You should read Gilgamesh and some of the Egyptian myths.

Since a few geniuses deciphered ancient Egyptian and Babylonian its clear that many of the bible stories are complete rewrites of older stories, rewritten to change the moral or to have a moral. What was adoration of war was rewritten to emphasize peace, cooperation and feminine qualities. In those days masculinity was equated with warfare, stubbornness, anger. Rather than flaws these were considered awesome and to be immitated. Young men were encouraged to excel at fighting and to rapturously pillage. This was royalty, godliness and better than best. Over millennia circumcision and the Jewish story changed all of that. It seems (since I am guessing) circumcision is an extreme commitment to oppose war, to suppress the inner tendencies of violence rather than to tribute them. I observe it is a commitment that works.

This changed the world for the better, so a bit of reverence is not uncalled for. I don't worry about it, however I note that if that Jewish fraternity ends we will have lost something immortal. I hope Jews find a way to keep things going and stay Jewish. What has worked in the past continues to work in many ways. Many people, such as yourself, question whether its necessary to go on as before. I don't know what to tell you. Some question if circumcision is still necessary and all the rituals and eating restrictions. I'm aware that a lot of the answers about origins are either lost or are secret, so nobody really knows why Jews don't eat certain foods or why they circumcise or why they won't do anything on the sabbath. For religious Jews answers always come down to Talmud which is their link to the past. For ages they lived with that as their only answers.

What is divine about the Jewish books is that they have captured a ghostly image of God. They didn't start as a search for divinity but as search for cooperation. Jews have through this torah adventure of theirs discovered means to develop a way for people to live together peacefully, to welcome strangers, to acknowledge and use innovations. In this their mystics detected God, but as you probably know Torah is more important than what is mystical. It is action and not belief which matters. Those ancient ones together with Jews all along the millennia help to boot up modern life, making it possible. They continue also to help it to exist. The scriptures are analogous to the invention of the straightedge which can then be used to invent the lathe which can in turn be used to invent the engine which can then be used to mix cement.

The question of obsolescence equals the question of whether modern society can be considered permanent. I don't think its permanent. I think humanity destroys itself regularly and fall back into trouble, at which point we need once again a straightedge. We start again from zero just trying to eliminate stupid ideas like "King of the mountain."

Lots to unpack. I think circumcision should be a medical decision. King of the mountain sounds more political than religious.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Lots to unpack. I think circumcision should be a medical decision. King of the mountain sounds more political than religious.

I don't. I'm circumcised and don't much care. For me it was done at a Catholic hospital, and my parents were Baptists. No harm. No foul. Medically I could have survived without it, but it wasn't a big deal.

They did a good job. Its beautiful. Not that it matters.

 

[Jake1001]

I don't. I'm circumcised and don't much care. For me it was done at a Catholic hospital, and my parents were Baptists. No harm. No foul. Medically I could have survived without it, but it wasn't a big deal.

They did a good job. Its beautiful. Not that it matters.

Circumcision is logical medical practice.

 

[74x12]

I am left with no option but to join in debate here in the debate forum.

The members of the Judaism DIR refuse to discuss topics of interest in the DIR.

My own view is that traditional religion is obsolete and illogical. Man invented G-d not vice versa. Who wrote the Bible ? A bunch of Rabbi’s.

What do you think??

There is a difference between rabbis and prophets. Prophets wrote the Bible and rabbis try to explain it; but they don't really get it.

 

[Rival]

but they don't really get it.

Lol.

Been studying it for thousands of years.

Don't get it.

Good one. Precious.

 

[pearl]

The word “confession” especially in parenthesis is not one often used in Judaism. But I agree with your sentiment and think that I as well as the members of the DIR have a lot to learn about tolerance.

By confession I simply meant what one believes as the core of ones belief which is often within a narrative that seeks to explain a profound truth, but is not on the same level as the truth itself. Did I make things better or worse?

 

[IAMinyou]

Hi IAM, do you affiliate with a religion ?

I affiliate with them all because they all came from information known as the beast that is delivered by my created existence.

 

[Kenny]

Hi Ken, I believe your timeline is correct, however your theory about the Bible being written under the command of G-d is highly speculative. Are you a Conservative Christian?

Yes.... I am a Bible Christian. (not sure how one defines conservative since I call some conservatives "religious" in your application)

The reason why I believe it was at God's command is:

Exodus 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

Is 8: 1Damascus and Samaria Fall Then the Lord said to me, “Take for yourself a large tablet and write on it in ordinary letters: Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey.

Jeremiah 30:2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.

Ezekiel 24:24 And the word of the Lord came to me in the ninth year, in the tenth month, on the tenth of the month, saying, 2 “Son of man, write the name of the day, this very day. The king of Babylon has laid siege to Jerusalem this very day. 3 Speak a parable to the rebellious house and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God,

And others... something about the Lord saying "write this down" makes me think G-d was ordering it.

 

[blü 2]

I am left with no option but to join in debate here in the debate forum.

The members of the Judaism DIR refuse to discuss topics of interest in the DIR.

My own view is that traditional religion is obsolete and illogical. Man invented G-d not vice versa. Who wrote the Bible ? A bunch of Rabbi’s.

What do you think??

I think it's beyond doubt that humans invent their own gods.

Since we find supernatural beings in every culture we know of, it appears to be either a direct product of our evolution, possibly with the function of assisting in tribal identity, bonding and cooperation (as do having language, customs, stories and heroes in common). Or it may be an artifact of the evolved human instinct to instantly assign reasons to explain unidentified sensory inputs (a useful response aiding survival). Or both. Or both and more.

The God of the Jews, as the bible shows, began as one more member of the Canaanite pantheon, apparently with a consort, Asharah, as was usual. The early part of the bible recognizes a world in which each tribe has its god as protector, supplier, responder to prayersbringer of luck and advantage &c. The early Jewish god does not say, There are no other gods. [He] says, You will not have any gods before me ie of superior authority to mine. So eg we find:

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.

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