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What's the difference between a religion and a cult?

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Do cults have secretive symbols, hidden messages and still more secretive members whilst religions do not?
Are monotheistic religions cults of personality? Does Jesus have a cult of personality?Are religions umbrella terms for many different cults?
Are religions mainstream whilst cults are not? Is atheism a cult?
Are pantheism, paganism and Wiccanism cults?
Are there any tangible differences, or are the "differences" completely intangible?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Before I respond to each of your questions, I'd like to address the question you posed in the title of this thread: What's the difference between a religion and a cult?

A cult is the church down the street from yours. A cult is a religion, usually smaller and newer than yours, that you don't like. If you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult.

On to your other questions...
Ozzie said:
Do cults have secretive symbols, hidden messages and still more secretive members whilst religions do not?
Some of them may, but I don't think this is necessarily a characteristic of a cult.
Are monotheistic religions cults of personality? Does Jesus have a cult of personality?
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you'll explain, I'll be happy to comment.
Are religions umbrella terms for many different cults?
As I said before, the difference between a religion and a cult is different for everybody. As a matter of fact, one of the definitions of the word "cult" is "a religion."

Are religions mainstream whilst cults are not?
Possibly, but today Christianity is the largest of the world's major religions. It started with one man and twelve of His followers. Undoubtedly, it was once seen as a cult.

Is atheism a cult?
I don't see how atheism could be classified as a cult under anyone's definition.

Are pantheism, paganism and Wiccanism cults?
What! I hope not! We're talking about my friends here! ;)

Are there any tangible differences, or are the "differences" completely intangible?
I wouldn't use the words "tangible" or "intangible," but I would definitely say that the differences are entirely subjective.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Is this a conversation with yourself or were you answering questions posed by someone else in another thread? :confused:

Imo, a cult:

1. usually centers around a charismatic leader or a very small group of leaders, who has/have complete authority

2. requires that followers give up their individual self-autonomy to the leadership. This usually includes:
a. financial assets: called communal, yet controlled by leadership
b. social ties: members are encouraged/pressured to sever ties with non-members
c. information: members are discouraged from asking leaders questions
3. has no mechanism of accountability between its leadership and its followers


Some cults do mature into real religions.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
lilithu said:
Is this a conversation with yourself or were you answering questions posed by someone else in another thread? :confused:
That was me being stupid, lilithu. I accidentally clicked on "edit" instead of "quote." You must have seen the thread while it was in that messed up state. I have since restored Ozzie's original OP. Apologies to all -- and especially to Ozzie.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Katzpur said:
That was me being stupid, lilithu. I accidentally clicked on "edit" instead of "quote." You must have seen the thread while it was in that messed up state. I have since restored Ozzie's original OP. Apologies to all -- and especially to Ozzie.
Ah... I've done that. :) Well, to my own posts of course. I have hit edit when I meant to hit respond a couple of times, but more often I hit respond when I meant to hit edit. :p And once when I was mod of another forum I accidentally deleted someone's post! :eek:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
lilithu said:
And once when I was mod of another forum I accidentally deleted someone's post! :eek:
Been there. Done that, too. And yes, it was very, very :eek: .
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Cult is worship. If the religion has worship, then it's a cult.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
lilithu said:
Imo, a cult:

1. usually centers around a charismatic leader or a very small group of leaders, who has/have complete authority

2. requires that followers give up their individual self-autonomy to the leadership. This usually includes:
a. financial assets: called communal, yet controlled by leadership
b. social ties: members are encouraged/pressured to sever ties with non-members
c. information: members are discouraged from asking leaders questions
3. has no mechanism of accountability between its leadership and its followers

Thanks, lilithu for saving me the time of having to type this myself!

This is exactly what I think of as characteristics of a "cult."
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Ozzie said:
Do cults have secretive symbols, hidden messages and still more secretive members whilst religions do not?

Both cults and religions may have these.

Are monotheistic religions cults of personality? Does Jesus have a cult of personality?Are religions umbrella terms for many different cults?

I think of a cult of personality as referring to someone who is still alive, or at least while there are still adherents who met the leader, so Christianity today wouldn't count for that, no.

Are religions mainstream whilst cults are not?

No. Some religions are not viewed as mainstream. Mine is often viewed as not mainstream.

Is atheism a cult?

No. (Who's the charismatic leader in atheism? Where's the organization?)

Are pantheism, paganism and Wiccanism cults?

No. The same questions I posed about atheism apply to these as well.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Originally, there were no difference between cult and religion.

The definitions given by katzpur and litithu are actually association with the cult is actually a modern definition and is usually use today in a negative way for religion that are either unorthodox or spurious. This is a more narrower definition, but cult can have broader meaning.

A cult is still a religion. The cult can be just as formal as that of the mainstream religion.

A cult can be tied to a locality or to a specific god.

If we looked at some of the polytheistic religions, let me take a specific god and location for example. The Egyptian sun-god Re (or Ra) was worshipped in Inunu (Greek Heliopolis). The cult of Re was actually widespread throughout Egypt, during the Pyramid Age (Old Kingdom), thus a universal sun god of Egypt, but his cult centre is in Inunu-Heliopolis, where he has his temple. The goddess Hathor had many temples and sanctuaries in various place in Egypt, and each of these city she was a local goddess, but at the same time she was worshipped everywhere in Egypt, thus a universal goddess in Egypt. All the Egyptian cults of different gods and goddesses, combined as one religion.

So cult can defined by its locality, of where their temple, sanctuary or shrine is located. A god can have many cult centres.

And to answer Ozzie's question about symbols. Yes, one god can have different symbol. Take for example, the sky god Horus, he was worshipped in both the northern kingdom (Lower Egypt) and southern kingdom (Upper Egypt), when Egypt was divided during the pre-dynastic period.
  • In the city of Pe (Buto), he was depicted with Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and his sacred plant is papyrus plant.
  • In the city of Nekhen (Hierkenpolis), however, Horus is usually seen wearing the White Crown of Upper Egypt, and the lotus was his sacred plant.
  • But when the two kingdoms were united into a single kingdom during the 1st Dynasty, and Horus' crown became two crowns in one.
Horus is usually seen as falcon-headed god, but in Giza, the Great Sphinx in Giza is now believed to be the head of "Horus of the Horizon" or Harmachis. Harmachis is usually depicted in art as a lion, instead of a falcon.

In Sumer (modern southern Iraq), Inana is worshipped in Uruk, Enki has a cult centre in Eridu, Enlil in Nippur and Nanna in Ur. These 4 deities are worshipped everywhere in Mesopotamia, but they have special places in these specific cities.

What I am trying to say is that different cult, of even the same god, may emphasise certain but different practice, custom, ritual or symbol more than they do with others.

Anyway, cult didn't have the negative aspect as it do today.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I agree with everyone who has said that the original, historical meaning of "cult" refered to any religious group of worship. However, we are alive today. And today, the meaning has changed to be something of a pejorative. So rather than simply letting it be a word that is arbitrarily applied to any religious groups we do not like, it might be more useful to come up with an objective definition of the traits that so often cause the distrust.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
According to dictionary.com

religion

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


cult


particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
I believe there is a fine line between a religion and a cult, but to define between one and the other can be difficult: where is the line? To me, it would have to be presented as a case by case basis. I don't like to make broad, sweeping statements about anything.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
If a cult means it is a false unorthodox religion, then wouldn't someone who don't belong to that religion would consider the others to be cult. Atheists would call all religion, whether they be mainstream or not, as cult.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
That was me being stupid, lilithu. I accidentally clicked on "edit" instead of "quote." You must have seen the thread while it was in that messed up state. I have since restored Ozzie's original OP. Apologies to all -- and especially to Ozzie.
Is this a conversation with yourself or were you answering questions posed by someone else in another thread?
It was actually a relevant question. I was musing over the "Hidden messages" thread and the reaction to it.

Then I thought about cults of personality and how these relate to monotheism versus polytheism.

Atheism is not a cult it seems to me because it does not have a figurehead. However, as cults are generally minority events in the US, and as 90% of Americans claim to believe in a God, I wondered if atheism with figurehead might be treated like a cult. I forget her first name, but a lady with the surname O'hare was the most hated woman in America until her death in the mid-90's due to her leadership of the Atheist movement in the US. Such public condemnation of a personality seems condemnation of a cult (in this case atheism) to me.
 

eudaimonia

Fellowship of Reason
Throw out your dictionary. It's not helpful here.

A cult in this context means an organization (typically religious) that isolates its members from family and previous friends in order to use psychological manipulation techniques to eliminate personal autonomy so that the membership may be put to the uses set by the leader.

What we have are three elements:

1) social isolation
2) psychological manipulation
3) dictatorial control

If any of these are missing, what you have may be described as "cultish", but it is not a full cult in the sense people normally mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
I don't believe that there is any objective way of deciding whether this faith is a religion or a cult. At the end of the day it's a value judgement and whilst it might quite clear in certain instances into which group they fall (Aum Shinrikyo springs to mind) in others it will not and people will disagree. As others have said, cult originally had an identical meaning to religion and now is a pejorative. In genreal then, it seems that religious movements that are harmful, isolationist or with very extreme or fringe beliefs will be viewed as cults. The question of where to draw the line is one that each individual probably decides for themselves. I would only ever refer to the obviously extreme groups as cults myself but I know from experience that others do not - I mean I've seen people even here claim that the LDS are in a cult, which I would never say, and I've even had to defend my church from said accusation in the past (at 250 million we'd be a truly huge cult, though).

James
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Dictionary :rainbow1:
1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
lilithu said:
Is this a conversation with yourself or were you answering questions posed by someone else in another thread? :confused:

Imo, a cult:

1. usually centers around a charismatic leader or a very small group of leaders, who has/have complete authority


2. requires that followers give up their individual self-autonomy to the leadership. This usually includes:
a. financial assets: called communal, yet controlled by leadership
b. social ties: members are encouraged/pressured to sever ties with non-members
c. information: members are discouraged from asking leaders questions

3. has no mechanism of accountability between its leadership and its followers


Some cults do mature into real religions.

An excellent definition.

I would stress, as well, that members are "encouraged" to sever all ties with their family (which I find particularly sad), and thatthe "teachings" verge on brainwashing.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
lilithu said:
Imo, a cult:

1. usually centers around a charismatic leader or a very small group of leaders, who has/have complete authority


2. requires that followers give up their individual self-autonomy to the leadership. This usually includes:
a. financial assets: called communal, yet controlled by leadership
b. social ties: members are encouraged/pressured to sever ties with non-members
c. information: members are discouraged from asking leaders questions

3. has no mechanism of accountability between its leadership and its followers


Some cults do mature into real religions.
The way i see it, any religion with a founder starts off like this.

So, for me, a cult would be the beginning of a new religion - when the founder of that religion is still alive.
Like someone already said though, this meaning is different to the word cult we use to describe ancient groups of people - like the cult of Osiris.

To explain my point, i'll take Christianity as my example using NT scriptures and show how lil's definition fits to the ministry of Jesus.

lilithu said:
1. usually centers around a charismatic leader or a very small group of leaders, who has/have complete authority.

Well we have Jesus Christ as the charismatic leader. With his small(ish) group of dedicated followers, of which 12 men and one woman were particularly important and later took over his mission.


lilithu said:
2. requires that followers give up their individual self-autonomy to the leadership. This usually includes:
Sheep and the shepherd. (John 10:1-16, 1Peter 5:4)
a. financial assets: called communal, yet controlled by leadership [/quote]
Judas carried the money purse for the communal group. (John 12:6)
None of the disciples worked and so relied upon donations from their followers. (Luke 8:1-3)​

lilithu said:
b. social ties: members are encouraged/pressured to sever ties with non-members
Most of Jesus's followers were recruited during his travels, they left their families and friends to follow the mysteries stranger - one man was commanded to ignore the burial of his father and follow Jesus (Matthew 8:21-22).
At another time Jesus ignores his own family, saying that his followers are his real family (something common in modern cults) (Matthew 12:46-50)
lilithu said:
c. information: members are discouraged from asking leaders questions
This one doesn't fully apply to Jesus, he was always answering questions. However, as we are all aware he had a habit of being cryptic and allegorical, using parables to confound those he didn't see as mature enough to understand.
Like many "prophets" since, he would expand upon a subject, but not to the point of putting it into clear language - and those that didn't understand him he chastised (John 3:10-15).

lilithu said:
3. has no mechanism of accountability between its leadership and its followers
This is harder to place, but when you have a group of people believing Jesus is the Messiah, a prophet or even the Son of God - what accountability do they expect? Also, times were very different back then - no one in authority was accountable to their subordinates.

In summary, i believe that if Jesus, Muhammed, Joseph Smith or even Gautama Buddha had began their missions today, they would have been placed in the same category as the Branch Davidians. It's only because their cult beginnings have developed over the course of 100's to 1000's of years to become commonplace beliefs that we call it a religion.

Other religions such as polytheist, animist, Taoist or other indigionous and leaderless groups would have begun without the cult.
 
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