What's the Deal with Evolution?

[McBell]

No we are not part of the animal kingdom. I kill animals and eat them. Your idea would make us all cannibals. And spiritually, we are distinct from the animal kingdom. We are given dominion over them, not over humans.

Well, seeing as there is only animal, plant, and mineral, what kind of rock are you?
my first guess would be brick

 

[McBell]

It's included in the package. It's not just evolution per say. It's abiogenesis and matter coming from nothing, also. And where did energy come from?

I was always there.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yes, I know that you're at war with all of science but why do you hang it all on evolution?

I don't. And I'm not at war with science. Science has to be able to be tested and repeated to be real science.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I was always there.

Ok, then energy is your god.
You believe in something that's eternal with no explanation as to how that's possible.

 

[McBell]

Ok, then energy is your god.

We must have completely different definitions of the word "god".

You believe in something that's eternal with no explanation as to how that's possible.

You have no idea what I do and do not believe.
But if making such bold empty claims helps you sleep at night, run with it.

 

[ratiocinator]

It's included in the package. It's not just evolution per say...

But that's what so many theists obsess about.

It's abiogenesis...

Which everybody accepts is an unknown but even if we conceded that abiogenesis was a miracle, the vast amounts of evidence that supports subsequent evolution doesn't just go away.

...and matter coming from nothing, also.

As far as I know, only theists think matter came from nothing.

And where did energy come from?

Leaving aside the technical objections (why do people think energy conservation is more fundamental than the rest of the universe?) where did your god came from?

 

[Windwalker]

I don’t know, man. This...


As in, “us”. Yeah, I get that.

But you said, “That it doesn't make sense to you, is a good sign it's probably right. “

You didn’t say “us”.

If I recall, you have not exactly been friendly in other posts.
But I get this attitude a lot from people, being a JW.
In the end, though, it’s all good. - James 1:2-3

Have a good evening.

It's a common problem of English when we use the word "you". Originally, I used it as the impersonal plural "you", or as my old Australian manager would say "yous". When I said, "If you can think of it, then it's probably not God," or something to that effect, applies to all human beings, "You" meaning any of us.

BTW, are you familiar with the Tao Te Ching, supposed sayings of Lao Tzu? The first line of the first verse in the first chapter goes, "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao", (Tao is a different word for "God" or Ultimate Reality). That is the same thing. If you can conceive of it, it's not it. It's our ideas, not God. Can you agree in principle that there is a difference between our ideas of God, and the actuality of God?

 

[Windwalker]

Faith does require evidence (You can’t ‘have faith’ in strangers, only people you know.)

Hebrews 11:1.... “Faith....is the evidence of things we cannot see.”

But what this verse is saying is that faith itself is the evidence, when there is nothing else that you can offer as evidence. "Things we cannot see", means we have no other evidence of its truth, other than our intuition, our hearts telling us. That "faith" is the evidence, when there is no evidence "we can see", as the verse says.

That's the point of the verse. "Where's your proof?" is answered not by fancy well-crafted logic arguments as evidence, but simply by pointing to your heart. "Faith itself, is the evidence". In other words, 'don't look outside yourself for proofs and evidences using your mind, look within using your heart'. "Evidence of things not seen", is found in the heart, not something the mind can point to and conclude as a proof.

I feel the same. (But that last sentence of Windwalker....

....that’s antagonistic & belittling. This is just me, but if I like a post, I like the whole thing. Otherwise I’ll rate it informative, useful, or something else.)

Anything we can discuss, it will be amiable. (if not, we’ll just stop) I’m a pretty good apologizer. My intent will never be to offend.

A beer sounds great!

I'm sorry you took it that way. It certainly wasn't my intention.

 

[Windwalker]

No we are not part of the animal kingdom. I kill animals and eat them.

When a tiger kills a human and eats it, I'm pretty certain that tiger considers that human an animal it can eat. Why would it eat a human, if it were not seen as another animal it could eat?

Your idea would make us all cannibals.

What? What makes a cannibal is eating others of your own species. A tiger eating a gazelle is not a cannibal. A tiger eating another tiger is.

Eating the flesh of other animals makes humans carnivores, not cannibals. But in reality, humans are actually omnivores, meaning we are both carnivores and herbivores. We eat anything, except other humans. Eating other humans would make us cannibals.

And spiritually, we are distinct from the animal kingdom. We are given dominion over them, not over humans.

A cheetah is the fastest animal. A human is the smartest animal. Being best at something does not make you not an animal by biology. Who we are spiritually, does not mean we are not biologically considered part of the animal kingdom. It just means we are spiritual animals.

There's a great saying I heard. We are not humans on a spiritual journey. Rather we are spirit on a human journey. We have bodies. Those bodies are an animal lifeform on this planet. We live on earth, while our souls touch heaven. We are both animals, and spiritual creatures. Both.

 

[Windwalker]

Not necessarily in the Theory itself, properly understood. But the threat is from those who claim that all life forms arose from it. That’s Dawkins’ view:

“Dawkins argues that there is no doubt that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is true and, unlike some other scholars of the subject, says belief in evolution is not compatible with faith in religion. In fact, he argues, science and religion undermine each other.
"I believe a true understanding of Darwinism is deeply corrosive to religious faith," Dawkins says in his TED Talk.
[……]
According to Dawkins, life was not created by an intelligent designer. In "The Selfish Gene," he wrote that science has established that, "We are survival machines -- robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes." “
— excerpt from Darwin and the case for 'militant atheism' - CNN.com

What kind of influence do you think Dawkins has on the younger generation of biologists? Or even the common folk? Way more than you or I!

Richard Dawkins views on religion and faith, is hardly a voice of authority on the subject of religion! I place his opinions as not any better than just some armchair philosopher opining his views about God on any Internet forum full of neo atheists out there, not having any idea what he is really talking about. I heard a modern NT scholar refer to him as the "Village Atheist", who's "Not talking about any God I believe in". Dawkins is a biologist, not a philosopher.

Evolution is not a threat to faith. Ignorance is.

 

[Windwalker]

Then how do you know that “God creating” is itself not a myth?

A mythology is a story. By definition is in an "allegorical narrative". God actually creating, is not an allegorical narrative. Stories about God creating, how he did it, why he did it, and such, are by definitions mythologies.

I do not use myth to mean falsehoods. I use it in the technical sense of the word as a type of story.

What convinces you that it is fact?

What convinced me that God creates all that is, is faith. My heart tells me this. My soul connects with it. I experience it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

But that's what so many theists obsess about.



Which everybody accepts is an unknown but even if we conceded that abiogenesis was a miracle, the vast amounts of evidence that supports subsequent evolution doesn't just go away.



As far as I know, only theists think matter came from nothing.



Leaving aside the technical objections (why do people think energy conservation is more fundamental than the rest of the universe?) where did your god came from?

The point is, you have to rely on ", magic" just as much as the theist, to accept a totally naturalistic universe.

 

[Valjean]

Well, seeing as there is only animal, plant, and mineral, what kind of rock are you?
my first guess would be brick

I'm not so sure, Mestemia. He could be some sort of vegetable.
He might want to avoid wooded areas -- a squirrel might tuck him away for the Winter.

 

[Windwalker]

Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith.
​

~unknown (at least by me)​

Bunk. Faith is believing something your intellect cannot penetrate. It is NOT believing in something that violates reason, such as denying evolution in order to believe God exists. Anti-intellectualism, is not faith. It's fear.

Faith is where we go, when mind can go no further. Blind belief, is believing the human mind can grasp the Infinite.

 

[ratiocinator]

The point is, you have to rely on ", magic" just as much as the theist, to accept a totally naturalistic universe.

What "magic" do you imagine I'm relying on? What does "naturalistic" even mean? If a god exists, surely it's the most natural thing possible?

 

[McBell]

Bunk. Faith is believing something your intellect cannot penetrate. It is NOT believing in something that violates reason, such as denying evolution in order to believe God exists. Anti-intellectualism, is not faith. It's fear.

Faith is where we go, when mind can go no further. Blind belief, is believing the human mind can grasp the Infinite.

Here you go, take your pick:

"Faith is the effort to believe what your common sense tells you is not true."​

--Elbert Hubbard

"Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime."​

--Rich Bennett

Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich

"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."​

--Ambrose Bierce

"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate."​

--F.M. Knowles

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."​

--Dan Barker

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ***; he is actually ill."​

--H.L. Mencken

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."​

--Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

​

​

 

[McBell]

Faith is a device of self-delusion, a sleight of hand done with words and emotions founded on any irrational notion that can be dreamed up. Faith is the attempt to coerce truth to surrender to whim. In simple terms, it is trying to breathe life into a lie by trying to outshine reality with the beauty of wishes. Faith is the refuge of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational men.​

~Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander
​

 

[Valjean]

according to evolution we are here due to a seemingly chatoc and indirect process, the idea of being created by a perfect being is slightly theaten by evolution for this reason

What?!
The ToE claims nothing of the sort. Natural selection is selective, through a natural process.

Natural selection is commonsense. It's been observed. People have been using the same process for millennia to breed plants and animals.
Do you really think magic poofing is a reasonable alternative?

 

[Valjean]

It's included in the package. It's not just evolution per say. It's abiogenesis and matter coming from nothing, also. And where did energy come from?

Do you think "goddidit" explains these better than physics, chemistry, &c?

I don't. And I'm not at war with science. Science has to be able to be tested and repeated to be real science.

And it has.
Goddidit, on the other hand....

You believe in something that's eternal with no explanation as to how that's possible.

...and you don't?
You're seriously positing magic as an "explanation," and find that more reasonable than natural mechanism?

 

[Wildswanderer]

cheetah is the fastest animal. A human is the smartest animal. Being best at something does not make you not an animal by biology. Who we are spiritually, does not mean we are not biologically considered part of the animal kingdom. It just means we are spiritual animals.

There's a great saying I heard. We are not humans on a spiritual journey. Rather we are spirit on a human journey. We have bodies. Those bodies are an animal lifeform on this planet. We live on earth, while our souls touch heaven. We are both animals, and spiritual creatures. Both.

We aren't spiritual animals. That's new age nonsense.
And it leads to the Peter Singer type nonsense of making some chimps equal to humans. It's an animal rightests dream, and I know because I've had these conversations with them.

The whole animal rights agenda is rooted in a Darwinian evolutionary worldview. If all creatures and plants are merely evolved species, then one is not “superior” to another—just different.... a rose and a scorpion are as valuable and worthy of care as a human baby or a bull.
If a fish is just a species that hasn't yet evolved a higher consciousness, how can you eat it? It's your kin. Let alone a pig or cow or deer.
We are not animals because we were created separately, and in the image of God.