• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What's in a name?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for this clarification. This will be in two parts...

Yes, they are some similarities between Jehovah Witnesses and the Assemblies of Yahweh, but they are some doctrinal points which we clash on also. Firstly, you say "I see that you hang on to Judaism". Well simply that's not true. . . . .We do not hang on to Judaism, and we do not hang on to Chr-stianity.

Wait up.....you hang on to neither? How is that possible? You call yourself a Messianic Israelite.....so how does that differ from other Messianic Jews?

Then you go on to say.....
in the American Standard Version: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:" What this is saying is that we shouldn't allow man to judge us negatively for keeping these Laws. Only Yahshua the Messiah is our judge and He was a Torah observant Jew. He kept the holy days, he kept the dietary laws, he would have observed the new moons. And he was our example, wasn't he? But you claim somehow that he is your example, without doing the things that he did which is rather ridiculous when you think about it. The Feast Days are wonderful experiences that Yahweh has given His people to teach them lessons, every year.
I am really confused now.....You say that you don't hang on to Judaism but then tell us that you keep the holy days, dietary laws and festivals of the Jews. Isn't that a contradiction?

It is true that Jesus was "a Torah observant Jew" and he was under the 'old covenant' all the days of his human life....BUT he instituted the "new covenant" on the night before he died. His disciples were therefore freed from compliance with the Law with the shedding of his blood. The Law ended right there...nailed to the execution stake with Jesus. (Colossians 2:14) The Law ended because Jesus had fulfilled it as he said. (Matthew 5:17)

we absolutely hate false doctrine. We stay far from it as possible, which is why we could never use the name Jehovah knowing where it comes from and how it came to be.
English Bible scholar J. B. Rotherham had something to say on this subject. Especially is this of interest in view of the fact that he might be said to have been one of the pioneers in using the form “Yahweh” in transliterating the Tetragrammaton.
His Emphasised Bible was published in 1897, whereas his Studies in the Psalms were not published until 1911, after he had died. In this latter work Rotherham returned to the use of “Jehovah,” which is all the more remarkable in view of how strongly he objected to the form “Jehovah” in the introduction to his Emphasised Bible. In explanation of his reasons for returning to the form “Jehovah,” he says in the introduction to his Studies:

“Jehovah—The employment of this English form of the Memorial name [Exo. 3:18] in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahweh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended. . . . As the chief evidence of the significance of the name consists not nearly so much in its pronunciation as in the completeness with which it meets all requirements—especially as explaining how the Memorial name was fitted to become such, and to be the preeminent covenant name that it confessedly is, it has been thought desirable to fall back on the form of the name more familiar (while perfectly acceptable) to the general Bible-reading public.”

We agree with him.

You say "When Gentiles were accepted into the Christian congregation, issues arose because the Jews wanted the Gentiles to abide by Jewish law as proselytes were required to do, but the older men and the apostles did not support that notion." I agree that some Jewish people wanted the Gentiles converts to observe the sacrificial law and also circumcision, and it was this law that Paul contested against in his writings. Many times Paul's writings are used to indicate the Law of Yahweh has been done away with, but he wasn't teaching that the Law of Yahweh was done away with, but rather the ritual law of circumcision and animal sacrifice. Peter says of Paul "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." in 2 Peter 3:15-16.

It is not only Paul's writings that make clear that the Law for Christians was not binding. He was just the one who said it very clearly. Jesus said he had come to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it.....so the principles upon which the laws were based, remained.

The Law is seen as a good thing. Romans 7:12 says "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." The Law isn't unholy, unrighteous and bad, which would be the converse.

The Law fulfilled its purpose....and once Jesus came and gave his life, it was no longer necessary, especially since the majority who embraced the message would be Gentiles. There was no necessity for them to keep the Law.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Part 2

You mention Acts 15:29 which says: "29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." These things weren't for the True Worshippers to observe only as you have made out, but this Jerusalem Council raised issues that the congregation were facing at the time. If you have ever had a team meeting at (say) work, problems are raised in that team meeting and solutions are come up for those problems. That doesn't mean to say that at other times other problems won't arise, and it's not to say that they are the only problems that need to be dealt with in that company. They didn't have to say to keep the Laws of Yahweh - that was already known and taught by the preachers in the Messianic assemblies. Take for example the Law to love thy neighbour as yourself. That wasn't mentioned at the Jerusalem Council, although we know this law is to be kept from what the Messiah taught and myriad places in the N.T reaffirm.

When problems arose, the governing body in Jerusalem, which consisted of elders and apostles, regulated what was to be accepted as doctrine. The book of Acts is a great reference for their activities and rulings, which applied to all. No one was to bring any other teaching into the congregation.

You next quote from Colossians 2:16 to say that we don't have to keep the holy days etc.
Paul was a former Pharisee who would have been scrupulous in keeping the Law, but he came to appreciate Jesus' words that now there were only two laws governing Christians....often called the "Law of Love" Jesus said when asked a tricky legal question...
"And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.”

It becomes apparent that all of God's laws are based on these two.....so it is impossible to break any of those laws without breaking the Law of Love.

There was no longer a need for the old Jewish system to continue because it had served its purpose and Judaism had become corrupted, teaching things other than what God had instituted at Mt Sinai all those centuries before.....now the New Covenant would lead God's worshippers in the direction that his Son would take them. It was a whole new ballgame. No vestige of that old system would remain.

We don't knock door to door, no. A quick reading of Acts 20:20 might give the impression that the apostle Paul went from house to house to preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the unconverted. The context, however, beginning with verse 17, reveals the true meaning. The apostle Paul "sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the assembly," and said to them "I . . . taught you publicly and from house to house" (Acts 20:17-20). Paul taught the leaders of the assembly in their own homes. He was not going from house to house attempting to witness to or persuade whomever opened the door. We use tools to get the Word out. We do tract distribution, personal witness, have radio and tv slots etc, but going door to door, no. 2 John 10-11 is a problem for believers of those who have a different faith to yours as it tells us not to let any that bring a different tidings in to our homes.

Acts 20 wasn't the only mention of the method used to preach about the Kingdom.....
Acts 5:42...
"And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and preaching the good news of Jesus as the Christ."

How did Jesus teach his disciples to preach?
Matthew 10:11-14...
"And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 If the house is worthy, see that your blessing of peace comes upon it. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 And whoever does not receive you nor listen to your words, as you leave that house or city, shake the dust off your feet."

How many were sent out to preach?
"After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go. 2 He said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. " (Luke 10:1-2)
He trained at least 72 preachers at that time who were to go in pairs and get the people ready for his visit.....how do you think they did that? (Acts 5:42) They went from "house to house".
He said that they should beg the Lord of the harvest to send out more workers....more preachers. All Christians had to be preachers. (Revelation 22:17)

Since we are to do this work right to the end of the present system of things, how does an obscure group such as your own accomplish Matthew 24:14? Do you consider all Messianic Jews to be your brethren?

The Law of Yahweh is not a bad thing. It is extremely good and without the Law of Yahweh, the Word of Yahweh would just be a collection of stories with absolutely no direction. In order for us receive the Holy Spirit, we have to obey Yahweh according to Acts 5:32. Therefore there's no way that a group can have the Holy Spirit if they do not obey Yahweh's commandments. The Holy Spirit is after all there to help us to keep the commandments of Yahweh and attain to a level of perfection worthy of Yahweh's Son.

I agree with much of what you say here..... but I disagree with the way you interpret scripture. The Law was a curse, according to Paul who said that because it condemned them every day of their lives. It was a perfect law that only perfect people could keep, thus reminding them always of their need for a Savior who would fulfill the Law and take it off their shoulders. They had to make constant offerings for their sins.

Paul wrote to the Galatians..."For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.”. . . Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)" (Galatians 3:10; 13)

I can see your sincerity but I can't agree with the way you read the scriptures....there are too many contradictions IMO.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The same goes for God, who has a variety of names - and a variety of definitions. Trying to argue there is one "correct" name for God strikes me as futile in the extreme.

Yes, there have been a variety of names, attributed, to God, but only two revealed by God himself to Moses on Mt Horeb,, I AM WHO I AM, the only other and more appropriate, the tetragrammaton. The problem arises when some insist on corrupting YHWH to something it is not.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes, there have been a variety of names, attributed, to God, but only two revealed by God himself to Moses on Mt Horeb,, I AM WHO I AM, the only other and more appropriate, the tetragrammaton. The problem arises when some insist on corrupting YHWH to something it is not.
According to the Judaeo-Christian bible.....

But there are many other sources of names for God, beside these.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
In another thread,
Jews: What do judaism think of jehovas witnesses doctrine?,
the question was raised as to the 'correct' name of our Creator. We
name our children, our pets, our boats, even our houses etc. We have
the naming rights because they 'belong' to us, our property. When naming
God I find it a bit arrogant, we belong to God, he does not belong to us. Are we not satisfied with 'I am who I am'? I ask this here as I am not allowed to ask on the other thread.

I believe He goes by many names and I do not believe there is one that is exclusive of the others. JHVH is often used but the one you stated is AYAH. In this present time the name above all names is Jesus.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It's like referring to your loved one and when someone asks his or her name, they are just "my love one."

In the US we ideally carry the last name of our father. It's not a arbitrary name but heritage, I guess.

In Islam, god has many names (linked in another thread) and they all mean something sacred.

Words have always been important in abrahamic traditions. If scripture has a name why not to whom the scripture speaks of?

I believe JWs have a tendency to alter scripture to fit their beliefs. They believe the name should be used but Jewish writers tended to refrain from using it. So why alter what the writer's wrote?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I believe He goes by many names and I do not believe there is one that is exclusive of the others. JHVH is often used but the one you stated is AYAH. In this present time the name above all names is Jesus.

And how many times has Jesus, according to Christian Scripture, referred to himself as 'I Am'?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I believe JWs have a tendency to alter scripture to fit their beliefs. They believe the name should be used but Jewish writers tended to refrain from using it. So why alter what the writer's wrote?

I see the name important and understand why it's sacred.

On the other hand, why does god really care about names-if he's, well, all loving and all-why does he have so many stipulations on the basis of that love?
 
God has many impressive and powerful names, names that express His person and character.

Jehovah isn't usually alone in the scriptures, but is bundled with other names.

There are many fine names including "echad" that indicate his plurality. My hope is that JWs and fellow Jews alike will avoid modalism heresy.

Thank you.
Jehovah’s Witness do not support modalism.
Once I read about Tertullian.
Tertullian’s most famous work is Apology, considered to be one of the most powerful literary defenses of nominal Christianity. It was written during a time when Christians were often victims of superstitious mobs.

Tertullian showed that the Scriptures made a clear distinction between the Father and the Son. After quoting 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28, he reasoned: “He who subjected (all things), and He to whom they were subjected—must necessarily be two different Beings.” Tertullian called attention to Jesus’ own words: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Tertullian showed that the Scriptures made a clear distinction between the Father and the Son. After quoting 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28, he reasoned: “He who subjected (all things), and He to whom they were subjected—must necessarily be two different Beings.” Tertullian called attention to Jesus’ own words: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)
Many mistakenly believe that the trinitarian concept means that there are no differences between Them.
 
Top