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What writings were left out of the Bible

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I thought I would start a new thread on this because the thread I posted it on is Getting in a mess. But try not to slag off other faiths please.

"at the time of the compilation of the Bible there were other writings to chose from."
What were they....?
Some were rejected......Why?
some were chosen........Why?
Did this choosing involve a political motive....?
Or was it purely religious.......?

Perhaps you can hep to enlighten us ...?


Terry______________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
"at the time of the compilation of the Bible there were other writings to chose from."
What were they....?
Take a look for yourself:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Some were rejected......Why?
The Church decided what was part of authentic Christianity and what was not.... these Bishops were tasked with the mission of spreading the Gospel and remaining true to the teachings of the master.... books that were rejected did not teach authentic Christianity according to the Christians living at the time.
Did this choosing involve a political motive....?
Political? I don't believe there was quite the same disctinction between Church and state like we have today... evey decision was political and theological because most communities were formed around religious principles and the Bishops of that community.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I must admit that this is new to me; one wonders how the decisions were made on authenticity.........
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
michel said:
I must admit that this is new to me; one wonders how the decisions were made on authenticity.........
That's where everyone gets it wrong.... it was THE DECISION that made them authentic, not the reverse.:D
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Scott1 said:
That's where everyone gets it wrong.... it was THE DECISION that made them authentic, not the reverse.:D

A bit like a self fulfilling prophecy then ???


Terry____________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
A bit like a self fulfilling prophecy then ???
Say what?

To trust the Bible as the Word of God, reason and common sense dictates you must trust as inspired those who decided upon the Canon, or else chock the whole Bible as divine to "dumb luck".

Keep searching, you'll get it.
 

Crystal Red

Episkopos Crystal Red
I believe some of the books of Ezra/Azra (something similar to that) were left out because they couldn't discern who wrote them because of the dates they were written, or at least heavily edited because the author made some mistakes revealing who he was or something. I'll dig up the article.

EDIT: I found it

2 Esdras

'While this book was cherished by the early Christians, it's authenticity is heavily questioned, and as such it was excluded from a place in the Jewish bible.'
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Crystal Red said:
I believe some of the books of Ezra/Azra (something similar to that) were left out because they couldn't discern who wrote them because of the dates they were written, or at least heavily edited because the author made some mistakes revealing who he was or something. I'll dig up the article.
Very well could have been... but also keep in mind that there were some Christians who wanted to toss out the Gospel of Luke (or at least portions of it)... and Hebrews was not accepted in the Western Church for almost 100 years.... to believe in the Bible means to believe in the men who made the decisions. Catholic men.:D
 

Crystal Red

Episkopos Crystal Red
Scott1 said:
Very well could have been... but also keep in mind that there were some Christians who wanted to toss out the Gospel of Luke (or at least portions of it)... and Hebrews was not accepted in the Western Church for almost 100 years.... to believe in the Bible means to believe in the men who made the decisions. Catholic men.:D
2 Esdras

'While this book was cherished by the early Christians, it's authenticity is heavily questioned, and as such it was excluded from a place in the Jewish bible.'

http://www.songofazrael.org/whoisazrael.html

this is a very detailed account of every aspect of Azrael, also known as Esra or Esdras, he has a lot of names.

 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Read Richard Carrier's excellent write up on this topic:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
Contrary to common belief, there was never a one-time, truly universal decision as to which books should be included in the Bible. It took over a century of the proliferation of numerous writings before anyone even bothered to start picking and choosing, and then it was largely a cumulative, individual and happenstance event, guided by chance and prejudice more than objective and scholarly research, until priests and academics began pronouncing what was authoritative and holy, and even they were not unanimous.
Astonishingly, the story isn't even that simple: for the Catholic church centered in Rome never had any extensive control over the Eastern churches, which were in turn divided even among themselves, with Ethiopian and Coptic and Syrian and Byzantine and Armenian canons all riding side-by-side with each other and with the Western Catholic canon, which itself was never perfectly settled until the 15th century at the earliest, although it was essentially established by the middle of the 4th century. Indeed, the current Catholic Bible is largely accepted as canonical from fatigue: the details are so ancient and convoluted that it is easier to simply accept an ancient and enduring tradition than to bother actually questioning its merit.
V. The Gnostics Make the First Move
Around 135 the Gnostic Basilides composed a mighty treatise called the Exigetica which, judging from quotes by critics, contained lengthy exegesis on Gospel stories like the Sermon on the Mount and the Rich Man and Lazarus (M 78-9). We do not know if he was drawing on any actual Gospels, or oral tradition. Nevertheless, the attack was underway: whoever disagreed with him had to respond in kind, with their own texts, and somehow win the resulting propaganda war. For this purpose the New Testament was all but born. And in addition to this was the political need for a scapegoat: pressure against Christians by the Roman authorities prompted many to criticise other Christian sects with the general theme "they are the bad Christians, but we are the good ones, so you should punish them instead."
In 144, Marcion proposed a reform of Christianity for which the church leaders expelled him merely for suggesting: that the OT was contradictory and barbaric and that the true Gospel was not at all Jewish, but that Jewish ideas had been imported into NT texts by interpolators, and only Paul's teachings are true. Moreover, he rejected the idea that Jesus was flesh, and the idea of Hell. But what is significant for us is that this implies a recognition of "texts" as being authoritative (M 90-4).
Marcion's canon influenced the final canon of the Church. His prefaces to the letters of Paul that he thought authentic were even retained in several versions of the Latin Vulgate Bible, and many of his proposed emendations of these letters and the Gospel of Luke have turned up in numerous surviving manuscripts, showing that his legacy was intimately integrated at various levels throughout the surviving Church, affecting the transmission as well as the selection of the final canonical texts (M 94-9).
What is significant is that it is shortly after Tatian and Justin's contributions that we discover the first instance of organized action against authors of new Christian source-texts. Although such action is necessary for there to be any hope of control over a reliable textual tradition in a milieu of wanton invention and combative propaganda, the fact that it only begins at such a late date is another blow against those who set their hopes on having complete confidence in the present canon.
XI. Dionysius, Athenagoras and Irenaeus
In this same period we know these books were being doctored and battles were being fought over authenticity along ideological lines.
It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are, since there are four directions of the world in which we are, and four principal winds...the four living creatures [of Revelation 4.9] symbolize the four Gospels...and there were four principal covenants made with humanity, through Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ. (Against All Heresies 3.11.8; cf. M 263)

Clearly, less than scholarly reasoning was affecting the canonization process

XV. Tertullian, Cyprian, and the Century of Chaos

Tertullian, a highly-educated lawyer, converted to Christianity in 195 A.D., and was an avid proponent of orthodoxy in Carthage, until 206 when, he became a leader of the Montanist sect of Christianity. Tertullian generally accepts the traditional canon, including Hermas, until his conversion to Montanism, at which point he declares it false
The first organized Imperial persecutions of Christianity (under Decius and Valentinian, and then Diocletian and Galerius) took place in this period, and by the beginning of the 4th century involved the outlawing and destruction of Christian literature. Even more than combating heresy, this became an important factor in compelling decisions of canonicity by forcing Christians to decide which books could be surrendered to authorities and burned without committing a sin, in contrast with those that were worth dying for (M 106-8).
XVI. Eusebius, the First History of the Church, and the Earliest Complete Bibles
Eusebius of Caesarea, reveals the embarrassing complexity of the development of the Christian canon
Even in 327 A.D., when Eusebius published the final draft of his Church History, two years after the great Council of Nicea, which set out to establish a decisive orthodox creed that would be enforced by law throughout the world, there was no official Bible.
Finally, we have another anonymous list (in Latin) of the books included in the Bible, found in a 6th century manuscript, which confirms the state of confusion met by Eusebius, as well as the esteem still reserved for certain books no longer in the Bible today (cf. M 310-11). The list includes the four Gospels and Acts, as well as the Acts of Paul , only ten of Paul's Epistles (it excludes Hebrews, Philippians, and 1 and 2 Thessalonians), 1 and 2 Peter , James, Jude, 1, 2, and 3 John, Barnabas, Hermas, and the Apocalypses of John and Peter. Metzger suggests likely scribal errors here (230), but clearly, before the late 4th century, the contents of the Bible were neither entirely settled, nor quite like what they are today.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0198269544/103-9299568-9756642?v=glance
and this link:
http://www.ntcanon.org/
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Terrywoodenpic said:
"at the time of the compilation of the Bible there were other writings to chose from."
What were they....?
The other books were those found in the collections refered to as the Dead Sea scrolls (found in Qumran, written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) and the Nag Hammadi (found in Egypt, written in Coptic). The Dead sea scrolls largely duplicate what's found in the Old Testament and the Hebrew bible (the Tanakh), but there are also some apocryphal texts, meaning that they were omitted (or "hidden"). The real controversy is over the texts found at Nag Hammadi, which presented alternative views of Jesus to the ones presented in the canonized New Testament. There may have been additional texts in addition to those found at Nag Hammadi but they are all we have now. (In fact, there most certainly were more since many of them were used for fire kindling before their true value was recognized. Tho I suppose one could interpret that as divine editing. ;) )

Terrywoodenpic said:
Some were rejected......Why?
Because they presented a view of Jesus that was different from the view that the early church believed to be correct. In the very early days of Christianity, many gospels (the good news) were floating around, not just the four that are canonized in the bible. In the gospel of Mary, Mary Magdalene is presented as Jesus' favorite disciple. In the gospel of Thomas, it is suggested that our salvation comes from within us, from our own efforts, rather than externally thru belief in Christ. In some other gospel who's name I do not remember, Jesus is presented as being a rather mischevious boy with supernatural powers.

Terrywoodenpic said:
some were chosen........Why?
Because they presented a view of Jesus that was the view that the early church believed to be correct.

Terrywoodenpic said:
Did this choosing involve a political motive....? Or was it purely religious.......?
I tend to believe that the early church fathers sincerely chose what they believed to be the truest representations of Jesus as the Son of God, AND what was best for the church. I believe in their minds those two went together. Whether choosing what was best for the church is a "political" move is up to you. I personally see more truth in the gospel of Thomas than in the gospel of John, but I also believe that choosing Thomas over John would have seriously hurt the fledgling church.

Terrywoodenpic said:
Perhaps you can hep to enlighten us ...?
Doubtful. ;)
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
That's where everyone gets it wrong.... it was THE DECISION that made them authentic, not the reverse.:D
These decisions were human decisions, or are you of the view that these decisions are 'inspired' by the holy spirit?

It looks to me that whoever that were more vociferous and more threatening, more dominating, more cruel, more determined to make their view the 'correct' view, and command more political authority have the last say during those turmoil periods of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, until a more centralized and more powerful Rome Catholic 'Pope' was entrusted with the final say with his team of Bishops.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
greatcalgarian said:
These decisions were human decisions, or are you of the view that these decisions are 'inspired' by the holy spirit?
Christ promised that the "gates of hell" would not prevail over the Church.
It looks to me that whoever that were more vociferous and more threatening, more dominating, more cruel, more determined to make their view the 'correct' view, and command more political authority have the last say during those turmoil periods of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, until a more centralized and more powerful Rome Catholic 'Pope' was entrusted with the final say with his team of Bishops.
Right... cruel, evil, blah blah..... ask an Orthodox member about the Pope and his "final say".:rolleyes:
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
greatcalgarian said:
These decisions were human decisions, or are you of the view that these decisions are 'inspired' by the holy spirit?
Yes, I believe that the Catholic view is that the Holy Spirit not only inspired but directed the decisions. God worked thru humans in the form of the Holy Spirit. For Catholics, revelation has not ended. It is on-going, but only thru the church.

That said, Scott, what is to stop the church from deciding now that some of the banned books are ok afterall? Perhaps the Spirit revealed one version of the truth when that truth was necessary, or it was the only truth that could be understood at the time, and now there is room for another view.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
PBS has an excellent reading material:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/
3h3.gif
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Terrywoodenpic said:
I thought I would start a new thread on this because the thread I posted it on is Getting in a mess. But try not to slag off other faiths please.

"at the time of the compilation of the Bible there were other writings to chose from."
What were they....?
Some were rejected......Why?
some were chosen........Why?
Did this choosing involve a political motive....?
Or was it purely religious.......?
Well, we could start by looking at the historical development of the canon. According to Stephen E. Robinson (PhD. in Biblical Studies at Duke University):

"Historically, there has not been one Christian canon or one Christian Bible, but many. For example, just before A.D. 200 someone in the Christian church at Rome wrote a list of the books that were accepted as canonical by the Roman church at that time. A copy of this canon list was discovered in 1740 by Lodovico Muratori in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, and for this reason it is called the Muratorian Canon. According to it, the Roman church at the end of the second century did not consider Hebrews, James, 1 Peter or 2 Peter to be scripture, and they accepted only two of the letters of John, although we cannot be sure which two. They did accept as canonical, however, two works now considered to be outside the New Testament, the Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon. Clearly their canon of scripture was different from that of modern Christians...

The famous church historian Eusebius of Caesarea, writing about A.D. 300 proposed another canon. He listed only twenty-one books as 'recognized,' and listed Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation as questionable or spurious...

Saint Gregory of Nazianzus rejected the book of Revelation in his fourth-century canon list, which was ratified three centuries later in 692 by the Trullan Synod...

The first indication of a canon like that of modern Christians does not come until well into the fourth century, when Saint Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, recommended a list of acceptable books to his churches in his Thirty-ninth Festal Letter (A.D. 367). But Athanaisus' canon did not become official until over a thousand years afterward..."

This raises a question in my mind: Which canon was actually inspired? EIther a book is "God-breathed" or it isn't. It isn't "scripture" at one period of time and then not "scripture" at another period of time.

Kathryn
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
lilithu said:
Yes, I believe that the Catholic view is that the Holy Spirit not only inspired but directed the decisions. God worked thru humans in the form of the Holy Spirit. For Catholics, revelation has not ended. It is on-going, but only thru the church.

That said, Scott, what is to stop the church from deciding now that some of the banned books are ok afterall? Perhaps the Spirit revealed one version of the truth when that truth was necessary, or it was the only truth that could be understood at the time, and now there is room for another view.
In that case, I can only conclude that the Holy Spirit has not make up her mind even after nearly two thousand years for the NT, and over four thousand years for the OT:D
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
lilithu said:
Yes, I believe that the Catholic view is that the Holy Spirit not only inspired but directed the decisions. God worked thru humans in the form of the Holy Spirit. For Catholics, revelation has not ended. It is on-going, but only thru the church.

That said, Scott, what is to stop the church from deciding now that some of the banned books are ok afterall? Perhaps the Spirit revealed one version of the truth when that truth was necessary, or it was the only truth that could be understood at the time, and now there is room for another view.
Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.... but the Holy Spirit still guides the Church.

There really would be no reason for addition to the Canon... I can't imagine that there is some unknown book out there or a piece of evidence that surfaces about an existing book that would be so compelling to necesitate an addition to our Bible..... and that is the only way it could happen... the Canon has been dogmaticly defined, and only a near impossible set of circumstances could modify it in any way.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Scott1 said:
Christ promised that the "gates of hell" would not prevail over the Church.
That he did. Unfortunately, we don't all understand that phrase the same way. And the way I understand it, it doesn't even pertain to the subject of this thread. ;)
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
This raises a question in my mind: Which canon was actually inspired? EIther a book is "God-breathed" or it isn't. It isn't "scripture" at one period of time and then not "scripture" at another period of time.

Kathryn
You have just reached the same conclusion: that the Holy Spirit cannot make up her mind at all, if you want to considered anything or everything to be 'inspired':bonk:
 
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