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What would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Numerous theists have asked atheists the question, "What evidence would it take for you to believe that god exists?"

The answers have been numerous, but the basic idea of the answers I have seen from atheists (including myself) has been, "Any valid evidence at all would work."

So now I ask theists: What evidence would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

It seems to me that if there is absolutely nothing that would cause a person to stop believing, that person must have an unwarranted confidence in their own understanding of the world.
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
seems to me that if there is absolutely nothing that would cause a person to stop believing, that person must have an unwarranted confidence in their own analytical abilities.
Why does a belief in God have to deal with analytical abilities?

My belief centers mainly on perception... I suppose you could argue that my perceptions are significantly flawed... but you'd have to prove it somehow for me to no longer believe...
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It would take a large amount of arrogance for me to believe we are as complex as life gets. Then again, arrogance is a natural human trait that even I'm not immune to. :(

I view the gods as simply more complex forms of life.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
It would take a large amount of arrogance for me to believe we are as complex as life gets. Then again, arrogance is a natural human trait that even I'm not immune to. :(

I view the gods as simply more complex forms of life.

That's not an answer to the question.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Why does a belief in God have to deal with analytical abilities?

I've edited my original post. "Analytical abilities" isn't exactly the phrase I was looking for.

My belief centers mainly on perception... I suppose you could argue that my perceptions are significantly flawed... but you'd have to prove it somehow for me to no longer believe...

Interesting. How exactly can we prove to people that their perceptions are flawed? I mean, some people with mental illnesses have clearly flawed perceptions, but such people often can't be persuaded that they have a mental illness. Religion isn't necessarily a mental illness; my point is that it seems like perceptions aren't the kind of thing that would be provably flawed even if they were clearly flawed.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Numerous theists have asked atheists the question, "What would it take for you to believe that god exists?"

The answers have been numerous, but the basic idea of the answers I have seen from atheists (including myself) has been, "Any valid evidence at all would work."

So now I ask theists: What would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

It seems to me that if there is absolutely nothing that would cause a person to stop believing, that person must have an unwarranted confidence in their own understanding of the world.
It would take you proving to me beyond the shadow of doubt that God does not exist.
With my personal experience there is no way that would be possible, so I guess I will always keep on believing......;)
 

blackout

Violet.
What would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

It would take literally 'nothing'. ;)

As I percieve gOd as the All that IS...
either I would have to disappear
(cease to exist-- and thus my perception)
OR
'It' would ALL have to disappear.
(cease to exist)

Of course, even then, that would include me
(as I also am Deity as part of the Great All)
Then I would "stop" believing. (BE-living)
 
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Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.


It would take literally 'nothing'. ;)

As I percieve gOd as the All that IS...
either I would have to disappear
(cease to exist-- and thus my perception)
OR
'It' would ALL have to disappear.
(cease to exist)

Of course, even then, that would include me
(as I also am Deity as part of the Great All)
Then I would "stop" believing. (BE-living)

If "god" means "everything", then why call it "god", when "everything" is a perfectly good word for it?
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
It would take you proving to me beyond the shadow of doubt that God does not exist.
With my personal experience there is no way that would be possible, so I guess I will always keep on believing......;)

So you're telling me that there's absolutely no room for doubt? Have you never believed something in your life that you later found out was wrong?
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
So you're telling me that there's absolutely no room for doubt? Have you never believed something in your life that you later found out was wrong?
Yes I have believed things and later found out they were wrong......But this if not one of those things......I'm telling you there is NO ROOM FOR DOUBT....:D
Absolutely, 100% sure, my life depends on it and I'm not changing, so just take a chill pill and don't fret yourself over it......I believe it, and that settles it for me...:bow:
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Since the way I believe the Divine to be could never be disproven by any human means...I guess I'd have to just wait until I die to find out any different compared to the evidence I've been presented with in life.
 

blackout

Violet.
If "god" means "everything", then why call it "god", when "everything" is a perfectly good word for it?

As sentience, perception, and creative will are all attributes of the All that IS
(as clearly witnessed in human beings-- as enough of a basis alone)
and I have witnessed the interconnectedness of "All" 'things'...
well... THAT is what gOd means to me.

And certainly I am not alone in this perception.
Pantheism and Panenthiesm both refer to the "All" as Deity.

All is gOd. gOd is a way of "naming" the interconnectedness
of the Living Changing All.
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting. How exactly can we prove to people that their perceptions are flawed?
It would be difficult... several people noting that I am having a hallucination would probably do it though... were I diagnosed with a perception altering mental disorder, that too...

I have no reason to believe my perceptions are flawed at this time, it is highly unlikely that I ever will, thus it is extremely unlikely that I will ever stop believing...
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
As sentience, perception, and creative will are all attributes of the All that IS
(as clearly witnessed in human beings-- as enough of a basis alone)
and I have witnessed the interconnectedness of "All" 'things'...
well... THAT is what gOd means to me.

And certainly I am not alone in this perception.
Pantheism and Panenthiesm both refer to the "All" as Deity.

All is gOd. gOd is a way of "naming" the interconnectedness
of the Living Changing All.

That didn't answer my question at all. I understand what you're doing; what I don't understand is why.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
It would be difficult... several people noting that I am having a hallucination would probably do it though... were I diagnosed with a perception altering mental disorder, that too...

So if the majority of people started to tell you that your perceptions were wrong, or you were told by a psychologist that your perceptions of the existence were wrong, you would stop believing in god?
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Since the way I believe the Divine to be could never be disproven by any human means...I guess I'd have to just wait until I die to find out any different compared to the evidence I've been presented with in life.

Why can't it be disproven by human means? Can it be proven by human means? If not, why do you believe it?
 

bicker

Unitarian Universalist
That didn't answer my question at all.
Well, it did, but perhaps you didn't like (or didn't detect) how it answered your question.

I understand what you're doing; what I don't understand is why.
That's a question I can help answer, but before that, let me talk about self-fulfilling philosophy a bit. I am referring to philosophies crafted so there is no way to disprove them. The natural, rational reaction to such philosophies is, "How conveeeeenient!" (With deference to Dana Carvey.) And such reactions are 100% appropropriate. If a philosophy cannot be proven or disproven, then there is no standard of reason by which it can be asserted to be externally valid. That isn't to say that people should be prohibited from adopting it as their own personal philosophy -- it can surely be valid internally, and that includes within any groups that collectively choose to adopt it. This is solely a matter of whether it is defensible to impose the ramifications and consequences of a self-fulfilling philosophy onto those who do not subscribe to it. And again, a self-fullfilling philosophy does not have such validity, and imposition of it onto others is therefore immoral AFAIC.

Pantheism is a self-fulfilling philosophy. It simply equates the totality of reality with God, an asserts this in a manner that cannot be disproven. No one can legitimately deny (and no reasonable person would deny) the existence of that which pantheists assert is God; but by the same token no one can prove that that which pantheists assert is God actually is God. Indeed, many religious beliefs are self-fulfilling; practically all, if not all theistic religions are. They assert axioms that are not defended because they're taken to be true, without question. They require, therefore, "blind" faith in at least one aspect.

It is important to note that no religion I know of specifically advocates disparaging or despoiling that which pantheists assert is God (the natural world). Combined with the existence of that which pantheists assert is God being undeniable, it puts pantheism in a unique position. While other belief systems might impose more on top, none really directly contradict most (though not necessarily all) of the natural conclusions of pantheistic belief (reverence for nature and the universe; respect and care for people; celebration of the earth's bounty; the value of consciousness, reason, and perception).

So having established that pantheism isn't offensive, I can address your question with regard to "Why?" -- i.e., what benefits stem from adopting pantheistic belief? I'll start off with two biggies:

1) It lifts the spirit of, and inspires, those who embrace it. If you choose not to embrace it, then you can look at it as you would look at an appreciation of fine art (assuming you don't share that penchant).

2) At least here in the US, thinking about your beliefs from a perspective of a language of reverence (i.e., "God" instead of "everything") helps communicate a more accurate understanding to the broader population. The broader population tends to equate such a language of reverence with goodness, and since your intention in belief is to engage in goodness, using the constructs that the broader population better understands in that regard serves accuracy of knowledge.

Does that help clarify "why?"
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Well, it did, but perhaps you didn't like (or didn't detect) how it answered your question.

That's a question I can help answer, but before that, let me talk about self-fulfilling philosophy a bit. I am referring to philosophies crafted so there is no way to disprove them. The natural, rational reaction to such philosophies is, "How conveeeeenient!" (With deference to Dana Carvey.) And such reactions are 100% appropropriate. If a philosophy cannot be proven or disproven, then there is no standard of reason by which it can be asserted to be externally valid. That isn't to say that people should be prohibited from adopting it as their own personal philosophy -- it can surely be valid internally, and that includes within any groups that collectively choose to adopt it. This is solely a matter of whether it is defensible to impose the ramifications and consequences of a self-fulfilling philosophy onto those who do not subscribe to it. And again, a self-fullfilling philosophy does not have such validity, and imposition of it onto others is therefore immoral AFAIC.

Pantheism is a self-fulfilling philosophy. It simply equates the totality of reality with God, an asserts this in a manner that cannot be disproven. No one can legitimately deny (and no reasonable person would deny) the existence of that which pantheists assert is God; but by the same token no one can prove that that which pantheists assert is God actually is God. Indeed, many religious beliefs are self-fulfilling; practically all, if not all theistic religions are. They assert axioms that are not defended because they're taken to be true, without question. They require, therefore, "blind" faith in at least one aspect.

It is important to note that no religion I know of specifically advocates disparaging or despoiling that which pantheists assert is God (the natural world). Combined with the existence of that which pantheists assert is God being undeniable, it puts pantheism in a unique position. While other belief systems might impose more on top, none really directly contradict most (though not necessarily all) of the natural conclusions of pantheistic belief (reverence for nature and the universe; respect and care for people; celebration of the earth's bounty; the value of consciousness, reason, and perception).

So having established that pantheism isn't offensive, I can address your question with regard to "Why?" -- i.e., what benefits stem from adopting pantheistic belief? I'll start off with two biggies:

1) It lifts the spirit of, and inspires, those who embrace it. If you choose not to embrace it, then you can look at it as you would look at an appreciation of fine art (assuming you don't share that penchant).

2) At least here in the US, thinking about your beliefs from a perspective of a language of reverence (i.e., "God" instead of "everything") helps communicate a more accurate understanding to the broader population. The broader population tends to equate such a language of reverence with goodness, and since your intention in belief is to engage in goodness, using the constructs that the broader population better understands in that regard serves accuracy of knowledge.

Does that help clarify "why?"

That does help. It leads me to another question, though. It is clear (at least to me) that when you speak of "god" and a Christian speaks of "god" you are speaking of entirely different things. Do you believe in a god in the traditional sense of the word, in addition to or as a part of the god that you equate with everything?
 
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