What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

[TransmutingSoul]

Hes suppose to raise the dead from the ground. Sense so many people have been put to death with fire i think its impossible. Why would we want our old bodies anyways? Raise our spirits up just give us new bodies we dont need the old. Scripture makes no sense.

It is the Spirit that is raised.

Behold the joy this world can give, even in the greatest turmoil!

That is the joy Christ offeres when he asks us to follow Him.

In this day it is the same joy given by Baha'u'llah.

That is what I see and I wish all happiness for you.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your farthers were. They are the ones that sought to kill the Messiah because they did not believe and follow God's Word.

Let's get this straight. Assuming your gospel accounts are correct (which is a big assumption) it was the religious leaders and those in the crowd that shouted for his death. Not all Jews alive at that time. Not even close.

And where do you get off blaming the descendants for what happened in the ancient past?

Stop blaming people for things they didn't do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hes suppose to raise the dead from the ground. Sense so many people have been put to death with fire i think its impossible. Why would we want our old bodies anyways? Raise our spirits up just give us new bodies we dont need the old. Scripture makes no sense.

Don't worry. No bodies will be rising from their graves. We will all get new spiritual bodies in the spiritual world.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it is the contradiction saying that Jesus won't return just as He left. That in fact he was born of a man and woman. The NT says that Jesus will return the way He left.

He will return just as He left. The spirit of Jesus ascended and that is what will return.

 

[3rdAngel]

Let's get this straight. Assuming your gospel accounts are correct (which is a big assumption) it was the religious leaders and those in the crowd that shouted for his death. Not all Jews alive at that time. Not even close.

Agreed, there were/are many JEWS that believed God's Word that accepted the Messiah and took the Word of God to all those who would believe and follow it. God has had his people that are JEWS all through time to this very present day that believe and follow His Word.

And where do you get off blaming the descendants for what happened in the ancient past?
Stop blaming people for things they didn't do.

We are all only held accountable for our own sins. If you follow in the footsteps of the fathers than you are a partaker of the fathers sins. If we repent and believe and follow God's Word and seek God's forgiveness than you have God's forgiveness.

God's true people are only those who believe and follow God's Word.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We are all only held accountable for our own sins.

Then I am not responsible for the death of Jesus.

 

[3rdAngel]

Then I am not responsible for the death of Jesus.

Depends if you follow the ways of the fathers when you have been given a knowledge of the truth. In times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth he calls all men everywhere to repent and to believe and follow his Word.

 

[CG Didymus]

We understand our scriptures just fine. What we fail to understand is the way that Christians imagine Jesus on every page of the Tanakh when he is clearly not there. For example, you see him there in Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." It's clearly about the Exodus of Isreal from Egypt, and not messianic at all. When Matthew misappropriates verses in this way, it makes us less likely to become Christians, not more likely. Why would we come and get baptized when you twist our beloved scriptures?

Here is news for you. The Romans executed Jesus, and they did so because he claimed to be King of the Jews. They executed dozens of messiahs and rabble rousers.

If you think our house is desolate, you need to come visit!!! It is rich and full. The only people who think Judaism is lacking are those who have no experience with Jews and Judaism!!! Come visit and learn -- not to become a Jew, just to get to know us better.

Now I don't know how great a part the Christian Satan plays in Judaism, but they find him in all sorts of verses also... like the Prince and King of Tyre.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now I don't know how great a part the Christian Satan plays in Judaism, but they find him in all sorts of verses also... like the Prince and King of Tyre.

The Christian Satan simply doesn't exist in Judaism. HaSatan is an employee of God. He is an adversary sent to test us by God, as we see in the book of Job. He can only do God's will.

Not sure what any of that has to do with what I said in the post you quoted. It seems to me that you are introducing an entirely new topic.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well that is not true. If you did you would not have crucified the Messiah and known of his coming.

Hmmm? And the Baha'is throw that right back at you. If only you didn't take the NT so literal, you would have recognized the symbolic meaning and seen that their prophet is the return of the Christ Spirit. But I don't blame the Jews for not believing you. And I don't blame you for not believing the Baha'is. And maybe even more so, because to believe the Baha'is, you'd also have to believe that all the prophets of all religions are true and sent from God... including Muhammad. Oh, and also that Jesus is dead and gone and didn't rise from the dead. It's quite amazing to me how anyone is expected to totally change their beliefs and accept a new religion? Unless they already have their doubts about their old religion, then the new one is like a breath of fresh air.

 

[CG Didymus]

As posted before, I do not believe they are God's Word, if they are not in harmony with the bible. They are just a fulfillment of the prophecies of Matthew 24:24 designed to lead others away from God's Word. I do believe God has his people everywhere though and is calling them out to follow him in Spirit and in truth.

What's very, very strange is that we are talking about the Second Coming of Christ, and in the Baha'i view, Muhammad was the Second Coming... then The Bab was a Third and Baha'u'llah a fourth.

But if we go back to Jewish beliefs, I wonder, are they expecting four "Messiahs"? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Christian Satan simply doesn't exist in Judaism. HaSatan is an employee of God. He is an adversary sent to test us by God, as we see in the book of Job. He can only do God's will.

Not sure what any of that has to do with what I said in the post you quoted. It seems to me that you are introducing an entirely new topic.

That they find Jesus in verses from the Hebrew Bible and likewise, they need to find verses that support their belief in Satan also. I'm sure you know how the story goes, Jesus had to come and be sacrificed to save people and destroy the evil works of Satan. But everything that Christians say about Satan comes from verses in your writings.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the Spirit that is raised.

Behold the joy this world can give, even in the greatest turmoil!

That is the joy Christ offeres when he asks us to follow Him.

In this day it is the same joy given by Baha'u'llah.

That is what I see and I wish all happiness for you.

Regards Tony

But Tony, it is the NT that says we will be given new bodies. It is the NT that says Jesus had a new physical body. It had flesh and bone. Yes, now you can make all of that symbolic, but for 2000 years the poor Christians took it all serious. If that's not true, then I think the NT purposely mislead people into believing that it was true... especially that Jesus did come back to life. And they are still thinking he is alive in that come-back-to-life physical body somehow. If his body is dead, buried and turned to dust, the gospels writers should of and could of said so. But no, they made up a story of him coming back to life. And now Christians are expecting him, Jesus to return. How can we blame them for believing in their own writings?

 

[Trailblazer]

My thought is that you are trying to put too much into a post. Our posts are already quite long. This is, after all, only a forum.

Yes, this is only a forum, and discussions about religion do not change reality as it has been revealed by God to mankind. As such, I do not take these discussions as seriously as I used to. What is important for me is to impart accurate information about my religion, because many people do not even know what it is let alone what it teaches. It is also important that I am courteous and I make connections with other people. I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything.

My advice to you is to pick out the BEST point or two from the article. To put the author's ideas in your own words actually shows excellent reading comprehension, but another alternative is simply to quote a very small section (and I mean small) from the text. Either way you cite.

I pared down the two articles as much as I could without omitting the necessary points. Since I can see you are conversing with a Christian about Jesus being the Messiah, I have included what the first article says about that.

Millions of Christians regard Jesus as the son of David, that is, the Messianic king promised in the Jewish scriptures who would arise from among the descendants of King David.

Conversely, millions of Jews do not recognize Jesus as that messianic descendant of David.

While Jesus was called the “son of David” in all of the synoptic gospels, he never once refers to himself as such. In fact, in the Gospel of Matthew (22:44) and the Gospel of Mark (12:35-36) he refers to this allegation and cites Psalm 110:1: “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.” His explanation touches on the relative non-importance of genetic descent, and the much greater significance of the spiritual context of this statement in the Psalm.

In Matthew 22:45 Christ says, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” Mark 12:37 says “David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?” These verses clearly imply, in nearly identical terms, that it is the spiritual rank of the one addressed that matters—not the ancestry.

Jesus was not the “son of David” in any genetic sense. His stepfather Joseph was a descendant of David (Matthew 1:20; Luke 2:4). But, according to the synoptic gospels, his only father was God

In Isaiah 11:1-9 it is said.....

The differing Jewish and Christian interpretations of these verses from Isaiah led to centuries of conflict and antipathy. Can those conflicts be resolved by the appearance of a new messenger from God? In the next essay in this series, we’ll see how the Baha’i teachings answer that crucial question.
From: http://bahaiteachings.org/christ-messiah-christians-jews-disagree
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, claimed to fulfill the ancient prophecies of both Judaism and Christianity.

While Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi often gave metaphorical interpretations of scriptural verses, in this case they all write in a boldly affirmative way about the actual genetic link between King David and Baha’u’llah:

He was moreover a descendant of Jesse …To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,”[6:3, 10:16, 35:2, 40:5, 58:8, 59:19, 60:1] the “Everlasting Father,” [9:6] the “Prince of Peace,” [9:6] the “Wonderful,” [9:6] the “Counsellor,” [9:6] the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” [11:1] and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” [11:1] Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” [9:7] Who “will come with strong hand,” [40:10] Who “shall judge among the nations,” [2:4] Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” [11:4] and Who “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” [11:12] Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” – Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94. (with scriptural references inserted in brackets)

So strong are the presumptions of those of Christian heritage that this claim couldn’t possibly apply to anyone besides Jesus, inasmuch as the gospels report so many persons having called Jesus “son of David.” He has been hailed as such for over two millennia, so many may still resist a genetic link between David and Baha’u’llah. Perhaps it was a Baha’i of Christian heritage who asked Shoghi Effendi to explain, no doubt once again, if this link is really physical. Shoghi Effendi directed his secretary to answer on his behalf:

Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Baha’u’llah is descended: [Abdu’l-Baha] says in ‘Some Answered Questions’, referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply ‘Word for word to Baha’u’llah.’ He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: ‘… for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David …’, thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Baha’u’llah is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

[Shoghi Effendi] hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Baha’u’llah’s connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike. – From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual Baha’i, July 11, 1942.

Of course this raises an intriguing consideration: Baha’u’llah, the descendant of Sasanian kings of the Zoroastrian Faith, and more recently of a distinguished aristocratic family of Shi’i Muslim heritage, was also a Jew.
From: Fulfilling the Prophecies of Judaism and Christianity

Yes, you really do have everything you need to understand about David. You are simply hard pressed to accept it because it conflicts with what you already believe. You simply can't admit that you (or Bahai) are wrong.

I can say the same exact thing about you, you simply cannot admit you are wrong. It would not be bad enough that the Jews rejected Baha’u’llah as the Messiah, but Jews also rejected Jesus and Muhammad, so they are wrong x 3. You see, Jesus was “a Messiah” and a Manifestation of God, although He was not the one who would usher in the Messianic Age. Muhammad was a Manifestation of God as well, and important link in the chain of progressive revelation.

I'll let it go, but I hope that you will remember that you walked away from the Tanakh rather than admit a problem. Just mull it over for a year or two.

I did not walk away from the Tanakh, I only walked away from YOUR interpretation of it when it comes to the prophecies that refer to the Messiah. You can continue to wait for the Messiah along with the Christians but he ain’t coming.

As I always tell my atheist friends, you can continue to disbelieve in God and the afterlife as long as you are living in this world because God gave you free will to choose what to believe; but after you die you will no longer be able to delude yourself the way you do now. There is nothing more I can say to avowed atheists and there is also nothing more I can say to believers who are sure they are right about their religious beliefs. It is an unknown whether anyone will discover the truth after they die, or the consequences of not knowing the truth, since God has not revealed much information about the afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

That and the incredibly creepy idea that a human sacrifice brings remission for sins.

Christians got that wrong about original sin and the cross sacrifice being necessary to remove it because those were doctrines of the Church that Christians grew up with. This was not anything Jesus taught so it is a good example of how scriptures can be misinterpreted and misapplied.

Yes, but not before the entire People had heard God. Everyone heard the ten commandments.

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.'

This thing where we ALL heard, not just Moses, sets Judaism apart from all other religions.

You did not hear anything because you were not on Mount Sinai.

So you think Judaism is“the special religion” because God singled out the Israelites to speak to directly? I have heard this before. The salient problem is that this was just a story written in a book, written by fallible men. It certainly is not verifiable history. Nobody could ever prove it happened; it is a story based upon religious tradition, not anything factual. But even if it did happen as recorded, that would not make Judaism special because only the Jews living 4000 years ago heard God speak. All the future generations simply have a Book to read that says that happened. They have nothing more than any other religion has, namely a Book of scriptures.

The Jews were chosen to hear from God back then but that day has come and gone. Then God spoke through Jesus and Christians heard from God through the NT. Then God spoke through Muhammad and Muslims heard from God through the Qur’an. Then God spoke through the Bab and Baha’u’llah and Baha’is heard from God through their scriptures. So you see, we have all heard from God and we all have a Book of scriptures that reveals the Word of God...

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Tony, it is the NT that says we will be given new bodies. It is the NT that says Jesus had a new physical body. It had flesh and bone. Yes, now you can make all of that symbolic, but for 2000 years the poor Christians took it all serious. If that's not true, then I think the NT purposely mislead people into believing that it was true... especially that Jesus did come back to life. And they are still thinking he is alive in that come-back-to-life physical body somehow. If his body is dead, buried and turned to dust, the gospels writers should of and could of said so. But no, they made up a story of him coming back to life. And now Christians are expecting him, Jesus to return. How can we blame them for believing in their own writings?

I am not here to blame or change any persons view. I have always said I only offer a new frame of reference, that I have found to be true and based in good science.

So the question is, do you think that it was ever meant that the same flesh body would again walk this earth of Jesus or any other person? If you do fine, if you do not, then you have to consider how you see it.

I have offered what Baha'u'llah has said about the subject.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That they find Jesus in verses from the Hebrew Bible and likewise, they need to find verses that support their belief in Satan also. I'm sure you know how the story goes, Jesus had to come and be sacrificed to save people and destroy the evil works of Satan. But everything that Christians say about Satan comes from verses in your writings.

Which, again, are misunderstood.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"Conversely, millions of Jews do not recognize Jesus as that messianic descendant of David."

How can I respect an article that gets such a basic thing wrong? Among those Jews that do believe in the messiah, the messiah is believed to come from the line of David, because that is what the prophets say.

He was moreover a descendant of Jesse …

As I've commented before, no evidence for this is provided, no geneology. You take this on 100% faith. It just comes out of the blue. I have no reason to believe it.

Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,”

How can you quote this but not believe it? And it certainly wasnt true of Jesus, Muhammad, or the Baha'u'lah.

I can say the same exact thing about you

No you can't. I'm not openly denying any verses of the Tanakh, or pleading that I haven't studied them in order to avoid their clear and obvious meaning. You yourself quoted a verse from your own scriptures that said the same thing. And yet you still don't believe. It's very sad.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You did not hear anything because you were not on Mount Sinai.

You don't find it significant that God spoke to an entire people rather than to just one man? It means that everyone could say, "I heard X, did you hear the same thing?" It means they had a valid REASON to trust Moses because they had also heard God with their own ears. Surely you can't miss the significance of that.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Conversely, millions of Jews do not recognize Jesus as that messianic descendant of David."

How can I respect an article that gets such a basic thing wrong? Among those Jews that do believe in the messiah, the messiah is believed to come from the line of David, because that is what the prophets say.

The article was contrasting what Christians believe with what Jews believe and pointing out how it is different:

Millions of Christians regard Jesus as the son of David, that is, the Messianic king promised in the Jewish scriptures who would arise from among the descendants of King David.

Conversely, millions of Jews do not recognize Jesus as that messianic descendant of David.​

The article goes on to say that Jesus was NOT a descendent of David, NOT from the line of David.

While Jesus was called the “son of David” in all of the synoptic gospels, he never once refers to himself as such. In fact, in the Gospel of Matthew (22:44) and the Gospel of Mark (12:35-36) he refers to this allegation and cites Psalm 110:1: “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.” His explanation touches on the relative non-importance of genetic descent, and the much greater significance of the spiritual context of this statement in the Psalm.

In Matthew 22:45 Christ says, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” Mark 12:37 says “David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?” These verses clearly imply, in nearly identical terms, that it is the spiritual rank of the one addressed that matters—not the ancestry.

Jesus was not the “son of David” in any genetic sense. His stepfather Joseph was a descendant of David (Matthew 1:20; Luke 2:4). But, according to the synoptic gospels, his only father was God.​

“He was moreover a descendant of Jesse…”

As I've commented before, no evidence for this is provided, no geneology. You take this on 100% faith. It just comes out of the blue. I have no reason to believe it.

You are assuming that there is no geneology upon which this is based just because I did not post it. The central figures of the Baha’i Faith do not make false claims because if they did they could be proven false. If you really wanted to know you could delve into it. It is not my job to do research for other people.

Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,”

How can you quote this but not believe it? And it certainly wasnt true of Jesus, Muhammad, or the Baha'u'lah.

It was true of Baha’u’llah, who ruled on the throne of David. That is why I believe it.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“I can say the same exact thing about you.”

No you can't. I'm not openly denying any verses of the Tanakh, or pleading that I haven't studied them in order to avoid their clear and obvious meaning.

I'm not openly denying any verses of the Tanakh, or pleading that I haven't studied them in order to avoid their clear and obvious meaning. There are meanings that are clear and obvious to you but that does not mean they are clear and obvious to me. I do not care what they mean to you because I know who Baha’u’llah was by my own scriptures, just as you try to deny who He was by using your scriptures… and the beat goes on.

You yourself quoted a verse from your own scriptures that said the same thing. And yet you still don't believe. It's very sad.

I have no idea what you are referring to.