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Featured What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    We understand our scriptures just fine. What we fail to understand is the way that Christians imagine Jesus on every page of the Tanakh when he is clearly not there. For example, you see him there in Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." It's clearly about the Exodus of Isreal from Egypt, and not messianic at all. When Matthew misappropriates verses in this way, it makes us less likely to become Christians, not more likely. Why would we come and get baptized when you twist our beloved scriptures?

    Here is news for you. The Romans executed Jesus, and they did so because he claimed to be King of the Jews. They executed dozens of messiahs and rabble rousers.

    If you think our house is desolate, you need to come visit!!! It is rich and full. The only people who think Judaism is lacking are those who have no experience with Jews and Judaism!!! Come visit and learn -- not to become a Jew, just to get to know us better.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Bible is not the only Word of God.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Well that is not true. If you did you would not have crucified the Messiah and known of his coming.
    Indeed that is why your still waiting in the airport for a plane that has already left.
    It is actually about both. ISRAEL represent both God's people (the body) and JESUS as the head of his people. They are the anti-type of Jacob (ISRAEL) and his children (the 12 sons; tribes of ISRAEL (Jacaob) *Genesis 35:22-26.

    Jesus and all those who believe and follow God's Word (his children) are God's true Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33; Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19). Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

    'Israel' "after the flesh", as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

    The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” who include all those who believe and follow God's Word (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20; John 10:26-27; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9).
    There is no misappropriation of the scriptures if the nations of ISRAEL truly loved the scriptures they would not have forsaken them. Now according to the scriptures God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word.
    The Romans did execute JESUS on behalf of the leadership of ISRAEL because they did not know the day of their visitation. He came unto his own but his own received him not.
    You have no temple because God has left it desolate because you did not know what it represented or did you know what the sin offerings pointed to. Now your waiting in the airport for your plane to take you on holiday not knowing that your plan has already departed.
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    For me I believe if something disagrees with the bible or speaks contrary to it than it is not God's Word.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I know, you already said that.
    Why do you think that other scriptures disagree with the Bible or contradict it?
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    What other scriptures?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Do you believe what is in your scriptures were actual thoughts and feelings and behaviors of God? If so, that is anthropomorphizing God, unless you interpret them metaphorically.
    If it was that clear, nobody would disagree as to its meaning and there would not be varied opinions and different sects, but there are, which means it cannot be that clear.
    That is exactly what Christians say about the Bible. You can go with whatever scriptures you want and I will go with mine. I have no reason to go with ancient scriptures when I have new scriptures with a message and teachings and laws that suit the needs of this age in history.
    There might be some scriptures whose meaning is very easy to see, but certainly not all the scriptures, and certainly not the prophecies that predict the Messiah.

    Of course Christians say the same things, but it cannot be so, since Christians do not agree about the meanings of their scriptures and neither do Jews. So you have a real logical problem to deal with.
    That would be like me saying that the Baha’i Writings belong to the Baha’is and nobody can interpret them any way other than how we interpret them. Of course the Baha’i Faith administration is responsible for the safekeeping of the original tablets but other than that anyone can interpret them as they want to.
    I am not insulting you. If you do not want to discuss David being the Messiah again that is fine by me, but I am not going to try to put the articles in my own words. Not only would it take too long but I would be changing the meanings of the authors.
    No, I don’t have everything I need but it would not matter if I had the whole Torah/Tanakh, since I will not interpret it the way you do. I will never believe David is the Messiah so it is best not to discuss this anymore. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I already have my Messiah, you are still waiting for yours.
    I am also busy all the time, especially on my work days, Tuesday-Friday, so I have to squeeze even a few posts in on those days, and if they are long I cannot always get to them in a day or two. But I try to catch up on my days off since I am at home all the time on those days.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is tiring listening to them, and is also very sad, since Jesus is NEVER coming back. Some liberal Christians have stopped waiting but the fundamentalists still wait and they will wait till hell freezes over.
    That is good to hear. Keeping our Covenant and being obedient to our laws is the most important thing for Baha’is. We have that in common with Jews. Here is how important it is:

    “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

    These are called The Twin Duties.

    What has been sent down by God is His Laws.... In a summary format this is repeated:

    “The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

    Where the Christian train left the tracks is when Paul did away with the Law, saying it was unnecessary because those who believe in Jesus as Savior are saved by grace alone.

    The following is from a thread I posted about a year ago, entitled How Paul changed the course of Christianity.

    “The most essential and effective alteration of Jesus’s message carried out by Paul was in denying the Law’s power of salvation and replacing the idea of the Covenant, (235) the objective principle of the Jewish religion, with faith in Christ and the atoning power of his sacrificial death; the concrete mosaic law with a mystical doctrine of salvation. Here the Cause of God was robbed of its proper centre and transformed into a mixture of Judaism, Christianity and paganism. The original community recognized the devastating effect of the ‘Apostle to the Gentiles’ and did not watch it passively. The Jerusalem community sent teachers (‘false brethren’, Paul called them) to the new communities founded by Paul; they taught the true doctrine to the believers only just won for the Faith and opposed the doctrine taught by Paul. (236) Paul was such a controversial figure that Tertullian, in his pamphlet attacking Marcion, called him ‘Apostle to the Heretics’, and the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies declared him a false teacher, even indeed the anti-Christ.

    This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century.”

    Baha’is believe that God makes Covenants through His messengers. God does not speak directly to anyone else. Perhaps God made that one exception when God spoke to the Israelites on Mount Sinai but it was not the Israelites who revealed the Torah, it was Moses. The rendition I got from a liberal Jewish poster on another forum is that the people were so frightened by hearing God that they asked Moses to take over and be the intermediary.
    Well, it is too bad I do not know more history and scriptures but religion and history were not subjects of interest to me most of my life and now here I am with other things I have to do. I might get to it someday though.

    I am very glad you consider obedience so important..... Here is another thing Baha’u’llah said about the Law:

    “God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    As posted before, I do not believe they are God's Word, if they are not in harmony with the bible. They are just a fulfillment of the prophecies of Matthew 24:24 designed to lead others away from God's Word. I do believe God has his people everywhere though and is calling them out to follow him in Spirit and in truth.
     
    #490 3rdAngel, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Excuse me? I wasn't around when Jesus was killed. I wasn't even in the neighborhood. Please stop blaming me.

    You are also waiting and waiting. Why? Because your candidate for messiah simply didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, so your answer is "Oh he'll do that next time around." Bah.

    This makes zero sense.

    You are suddenly changing subjects. This is unrelated to our topic, and plus you are DUMPING (overwhelming your interlocutor with verses in an attempt to so busy him/her with work that he won't have time to put up an effective argument). It won't work.

    As I've said before, this sort of replacement theology is the manure upon which anti-Semetism grows. Don't believe me? The terrorists that shot up the kosher grocery store a couple of days ago believed this. They hated Jews for being a "fake Israel." Yada yada.

    You don't happen to be a Black Hebrew Israelite, are you?


    The scriptures don't belong to you. The are written by Jews about Jews for Jews. If you are inspired by them, that's great. But if you want to interpret them out of context, you are not welcome to that. (Definitely my pet peeve.)

    The Romans didn't do squat for the Jews.

    We have no temple because we hated without cause. The hatred of one Jew for another was enormous and scandalous. It stunned the mind. It is said that when we have learned to love without cause, the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah will come.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    My thought is that you are trying to put too much into a post. Our posts are already quite long. This is, after all, only a forum.

    My advice to you is to pick out the BEST point or two from the article. To put the author's ideas in your own words actually shows excellent reading comprehension, but another alternative is simply to quote a very small section (and I mean small) from the text. Either way you cite.

    Yes, you really do have everything you need to understand about David. You are simply hard pressed to accept it because it conflicts with what you already believe. You simiply can't admit that you (or Bahai) are wrong.

    I'll let it go, but I hope that you will remember that you walked away from the Tanakh rather than admit a problem. Just mull it over for a year or two.

    Be well.
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Well written post, btw.

    That and the incredibly creepy idea that a human sacrifie brings remission for sins.

    Yes, but not before the entire People had heard God. Everyone heard the ten commandments.

    Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.'

    This thing where we ALL heard, not just Moses, sets Judaism apart from all other religions.
     
    #493 IndigoChild5559, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe that they are God's Word that is renewed and readorned in every age:

    “Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned…. That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I find it amusing that you so easily deny reality.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is the contradiction saying that Jesus won't return just as He left. That in fact he was born of a man and woman. The NT says that Jesus will return the way He left.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe he is wrong again. I have no idea what he is referring to when he says "this verse" unless he is talking about his own and that would be self deception.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    You are entitled to your view. Mine is that if anything contradicts the bible is a false teaching.
     
    #498 3rdAngel, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  19. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Hes suppose to raise the dead from the ground. Sense so many people have been put to death with fire i think its impossible. Why would we want our old bodies anyways? Raise our spirits up just give us new bodies we dont need the old. Scripture makes no sense.
     
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your farthers were. They are the ones that sought to kill the Messiah because they did not believe and follow God's Word.

    2 Peter 3:4; 10 [3], Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4], And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [10], But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    2 Peter 3:9 [9],The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Your fathers believed the same things and God told ISAIAH to tell them; Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive, for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.*ISAIAH 6:9-10.

    I have not changed the subject at all. I have only provided scripture to show who God's true ISRAEL is according to the scriptures in relation to your claims about the Gospel of Matthew in relation to Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 and JESUS not being God's son ISREAL as well as His people. Your simply trying to hand waive God's Word and pretend the scriptures do not exist. According to the scriptures today God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

    There is no such thing as "replacement theology". It is simply a term invented by men by those who do not believe the scriptures pointing to the coming of the Messiah revealed in JESUS and the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise of JEREMIAH 31:31-34 of God's ISRAEL who are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

    You should be peeved at yourself then. Your still in the airport and don't know that you have missed the plane when the notice board is showing your plane has already departed closing your eyes and ears as said the prophet ISAIAH, crying "out of context" yet you yourself provide nothing except to ingore God's Word.

    Sure they did. The crucified the Messiah for your fathers because they did not believe or follow God's Word and did not know the day of their visitation.

    Nope you have no temple because earthly shadows have passed away and are fulfilled in the new and because of the Judgments of God. ISRAEL as a nation did not put an end to sin *DANIEL 9:24-27 now God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
     
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