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What will be the Truth?

What is Truth?

  • It is only Relative

    Votes: 2 10.5%
  • It is only Subjective

    Votes: 2 10.5%
  • It is from One Source

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • I am Undecided

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • It is only found via Science

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • It is found in Science and Faith

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • It is found only in Faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other - Please Explain

    Votes: 12 63.2%

  • Total voters
    19

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course not! Real love is often not easy. It sticks with you through all times.

Mercy is the kinda love I have trouble with. Sometimes it's easier to apply than others. I don't like to just excuse bad dealings.

I see in Love there is Justice, so one does not excuse the action of bad dealings, we must remedy bad actions. True mercy would need to see Justice is also served.

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What then, is the scientific explanation or definition of selfless Love?
I think it is confusion in thought. In case of religions it is a ploy to attract possible converts, esoteric high-fly thinking - we are better than others. These very people professing universal love invited God's wrath on those who do not accept their way. Tell me if it is not true.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How do you address conflict, though?

If some people have opposing ideas about bahai but want to build world peace among humanity, how do you address that discrepancy?

Talking and understanding doesn't solve problems. Action does. For example, I understand fully what you believe. But the question is the action.

I see you are correct, as in the end it will be the actions will build the world. If as claimed, the Truth is found also in Baha'ullah's Message, we will see the world start to implement the actions that Baha'u'llah said would happen, but also consider, they are still supposed to happen in many Faiths, as many Faiths teach righeous actions and many Faiths tell of a day where Peace is found, in one way or another.

So we can use some baselines that need to happen, if people agree, lets try a few;

The elimination of all prejudices, Race, Class, Gender.
The elimination of the extremes of poverty and wealth.
The disarmament of the Nations and a unity of Nations in rightoues actions.
Education for all.
A means of employment for all.

Do you have other actions we can take as a human race?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hm. If all come from the same source, wouldn't there be one color rather than opposites?

If there is one truth but many perspectives, there isn't such thing as light and darkness or truth and falsehood. Gray maybe?

Now there is a great metaphor about what is Truth. Colour is refracted light as interpreted through what we see and process. White pure light is made of many wavelengths and it is only when refracted that the wavelengths can be seen in many different colours. Much like all the Names of God, One Source, the white Light, many Names of Many Messengers, the refracted light in all its colours.

Black or darkness does not exist in the light spectrum, it is not a colour of God, in fact a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes, this is evil, the lack of Godly virtues.

So what is not pure colour, has been tinted with black, or darkness has absorbed some of the light to get darker shades.

Are black and white colors? | Adobe

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Tony Bristow-Stagg
RE:OP (Hope all is well in land of Ozzies)


:sparkle: Attainment of 'world peace' means each individual attaining peace and this comes from realising that it is within each one of us and not from any other person/organisation/religion.
The only universal 'Truth' is that existence is self-evident, so if people would pursue & realise :sparkle: above, an incredible world could manifest.
Beliefs are not self-evident, believing they are is just not so.

@Jedster RE:Reply (Hope all is well in the land of the Brits) :)

I will repost sections you have posted, that I see we are in full agreement with "Attainment of 'world peace' means each individual attaining peace and this comes from realising that it is within each one of us......".

As to what is evident Truth, I see that is relative to each person Nature and Nurture and what they have happened upon and accepted in life.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it is confusion in thought. In case of religions it is a ploy to attract possible converts, esoteric high-fly thinking - we are better than others. These very people professing universal love invited God's wrath on those who do not accept their way. Tell me if it is not true.

It is not true for me, I in no way invite any ill will or no good on to you, nor do I see any Faith does. :)

What I do see is a world that operates on the twin pillars of reward or punishment, yin and yang, Karma, dark and light, negative and positive, or even 'Every Action has an Equal and Opposite Reaction'.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The like is for most of the post ;):D

As to the last statement, I put my peaceful attitude forward, as what can and will happen with the Baha'i Faith in the future. I know that peaceful attitude is shared by a person that is a Baha'i. Now the tricky part, to be as Abdul'baha was as he was the first Baha'i and the example of what it is to be a Baha'i.

That OB is the biggest proof of the goals of the Baha'i Faith, the Goal is to live as Abdul,Baha did. Thus what did He say about the future?

Regards Tony
Hi Tony...
I 'liked' all the bits that were likeable too. :)
Tony........ I have read several accounts of AbdulBaha's aggression, and some of Bahauallah's. These are whitewashed right out of Bahai accounts of course.

If a Bahai World would be filled with humans, then there would be aggression and other sins, I think.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I see you are correct, as in the end it will be the actions will build the world. If as claimed, the Truth is found also in Baha'ullah's Message, we will see the world start to implement the actions that Baha'u'llah said would happen, but also consider, they are still supposed to happen in many Faiths, as many Faiths teach righeous actions and many Faiths tell of a day where Peace is found, in one way or another.

So we can use some baselines that need to happen, if people agree, lets try a few;

The elimination of all prejudices, Race, Class, Gender.
The elimination of the extremes of poverty and wealth.
The disarmament of the Nations and a unity of Nations in rightoues actions.
Education for all.
A means of employment for all.

Do you have other actions we can take as a human race?

Regards Tony

Like I said. No one is disagreeing with the goals and intentions just the hows and for some people whys, foundations, and whether one needs a guide or not. So, all of us come around the table regardless of our worldview and morals and decide to provide education for all. Would bahaullah's teachings (specific to god) be involved in the answer?

If not, maybe it's best to suggest ways to tackle these issues from a humanity perspective rather than a godly one? That way, everyone would be on the same train of thought. When (like your OP) starts with Bahai, some people may think it's a bahai intention; if they disagree with bahai's teachings, they disagree with "the way" in which bahai may solve these problems.

So, maybe a different method of gaining world peace that incorporates all maybe be a good place to begin?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Now there is a great metaphor about what is Truth. Colour is refracted light as interpreted through what we see and process. White pure light is made of many wavelengths and it is only when refracted that the wavelengths can be seen in many different colours. Much like all the Names of God, One Source, the white Light, many Names of Many Messengers, the refracted light in all its colours.

Black or darkness does not exist in the light spectrum, it is not a colour of God, in fact a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes, this is evil, the lack of Godly virtues.

So what is not pure colour, has been tinted with black, or darkness has absorbed some of the light to get darker shades.

Are black and white colors? | Adobe

Regards Tony

I lost you near the tail end of the metaphor. If every color except black is a reflection of light (have some sort of positive attributes?)-the source being white-then how can there be an absence of it (or any negative attributes)?

If the source is all there is, how can there be anything or any absent of color outside of it?
(If positive attributes is all there is just different forms of looking at it, how can there be a absence of it?

If there are no differences and dependencies how would a "thing" like darkness exist?

i.e. If we came to the table and one says war is a great way to help end the fight against our enemies. We'd have none left. While others say we don't need war. If these two views are different perspectives of the same coin, then how do you address literally rather than theologically both parties without discrediting their truths?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
My answer in the poll was: Other.
Because none of the choices was directly how to understand it :)

Truth can only be realized (speaking of spiritual truth)
In my understanding Truth is realized by our own cultivation of mind and body. The more we remove the negative in our speech, action thoughts, the closer we get to realize the truth.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My answer in the poll was: Other.
Because none of the choices was directly how to understand it :)

Truth can only be realized (speaking of spiritual truth)
In my understanding Truth is realized by our own cultivation of mind and body. The more we remove the negative in our speech, action thoughts, the closer we get to realize the truth.

Cannot fault that truth. :D;)

Regards Tony
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I would have to ask then, is Truth the same for a rock as it would be for an eagle?

Are we talking about a source beyond our perception?

Regards Tony

The truth is the same for a rock and an eagle, it is very much perceivable. There would be no point for the journey if you couldn't perceive the answer.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I in no way invite any ill will or no good on to you, ..
That is very kind of you, but Bahaollah and his Allah were not that forgiving.
.. the Truth is found also in Baha'ullah's Message, ..
Yeah, Bahaollah was also one asking for Allah's wrath on atheists and people who would not accept his 'divine' mission. All the monotheists are the same and this 19th Century Iranian preacher was no different. I am sorry, what I found in Bahaollah's message was his bloated ego and blurbs of a salesman.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The problem as I see it is that there could be a spiritual reality that cannot be proven as a fact.
But that does not mean the spiritual reality does not exist because proof does not create reality.

What atheists believe to be true is that the only reality is the material reality.
But that does not mean the material reality is the only reality that exists.


And dolphins may be space travellers who have settled her because they like the fish. See where such a claim gets you?

We have spoken of atheism previously, i would have though you would have leaned the meaning of atheism by now, it seems not. So here it s again.

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It is the only reality that anyone has evidence for.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Tricky, what is fact and what is reality? I see truth can change both of those.

For instance, at one time it would have been taught about a flat earth, it was peoples reality and taught as fact. The same can be said for some biblical stories, seen as true taught as fact.

So it seems truth is more than our current understandings, that it is outside a world of scientific discoveries and faith built perceptions as to what is 'Truth'.

Does that then mean truth can only be relative?

@Sunstone - I edited this, as your reply agreed to the post I responded to.

Regards Tony

You are confusing truth with opinion. And this is why i prefer my version.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The truth is the same for a rock and an eagle, it is very much perceivable. There would be no point for the journey if you couldn't perceive the answer.

I can see there is an ability of perception, that is given to man, which I see has limits. It would mean then, as Truth is Truth, the use of our rational faculty gives us the Truths we accept.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, Bahaollah was also one asking for Allah's wrath on atheists and people who would not accept his 'divine' mission. All the monotheists are the same and this 19th Century Iranian preacher was no different. I am sorry, what I found in Bahaollah's message was his bloated ego and blurbs of a salesman.

That comes back to 'What is Truth'. It may very well be that our perception of this world changes the more we embrace what is Truth, over what is vain imaginings. Personally, I see that we are warned of what our vain imaginings produce, which is disunity and decay.

Now the quandary ;):D Is any of our versions of the Truth, actually Truth? Are the warnings given by the Messengers valid? Are you correct in what you say?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are confusing truth with opinion. And this is why i prefer my version.

Are we not both saying Truth is Relative? Even in science, is not Truth only relative to our current knowledge? Can not scientific facts change when we discover new understandings?

Regards Tony
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I think there is a spirit of truth that goes beyond words. The root motivations from which all other motivations spring. Rooted in virtues. Loyalty to virtues.

The most abused virtue is faith. And it's also one of the most misplaced virtues. Also it is ill defined.

There is a force of truth. Where people either become cold vs. where people become more compassionate. The two roads diverge. The two roads oppose each other. On one hand you have jealousy, wrath, envy, hatred, etc. On the other hand you have peace, love, joy, compassion.

Also joy comes at the toughest times as well. It isn't some willy nilly emotion.

Virtues are ill defined, overlooked, under done. The truth lies inside the virtues. But language gets twisted, marred, down graded, changed. So that the simplicity becomes lost.
 
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