What was the intent of the Gospel authors when writing of the resurrection of Christ?

[Deeje]

The Christians I encounter having nothing to distinguish them from anyone else, apart from believing their religion is superior. I’ve met wonderful people from many different cultures and faiths and developed enduring friendships.

How does that response address what I said? It is God who draws right hearted ones to his truth (John 6:44; 65) If that is the case, who is God drawing? If there is one truth and God is the one who guides us to it, what happens to those who are not drawn by him?...to those who cling to what is not truth?

I believe that Paul answers that question....
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...
“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Those who want to hang onto their own truth, (because it suits them) rather than acknowledging God's truth, will be permitted to keep their "delusion", which in the end will be exposed for what it is. No man is the judge however....Jesus has that job. “Many” he said, are going to come to disappointment....suffering his complete rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23) Who wants to be on the end of that stinging rebuke?

If we are each equally confident in our beliefs, does that guarantee that God is the author of them? The Bible says that we have a common enemy who is capable of ‘blinding the minds’ of those who are not open to the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) This one, it is said, can “transform himself into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) in order to deceive those who like the “feel good” “God loves everyone” kind of faith that denies just about every punishment that God ever meted out to his people for their disobedience.
Conversely we have those whose aim is to 'kill the infidels' because they somehow have a duty to God to do so.
Its about 'who' you believe, isn't it?

But what is the point of the lessons if we keep doing what God has already said offends him?

I agree the concept of life after death is not portrayed clearly in either the Hebrew Bible nor NT. Baha’is and JWs clearly have different views.

Life after death in the scriptures depends entirely on resurrection....there is no other way for life to continue after death. There is no immortal soul that exits the body at death, so it's not an immediate transformation for the majority. We all have to wait for the establishment of God's Kingdom to fix everything that is wrong on this planet. (2 Peter 3:13)

A human must give up life in the flesh to experience life again, either in heaven or on earth. God did not design human life to exist anywhere but here on terra firma, where he carefully prepared this planet for human life to continue here forever.

He did not create humans to go to heaven, but when Adam decided to take his future into his own hands, God allowed humans to fully experience all that it would mean in real terms. Life outside the garden was not going to be a bed of roses. So when the time came for God to reclaim his rulership over mankind, he had to deal with the one who caused rebellion in the first place. Without the devil, nothing in the Bible makes any sense. If you turn him into a mythical concept, you play right into his hands. You can't fight an enemy that you don't believe really exists. If the devil was real to Jesus, then we can take him at his word.

I do not equate Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism with worshipping the golden calf in the Hebrew Bible.

The point of mentioning the golden calf was that the Israelites thought that they were worshipping Jehovah, but by using the form of a god worshipped in a different religion, they were thereby committing idolatry....something God hates. No false religious beliefs or practices were tolerated by Israel’s God.....and still aren't to this day.

When the Jews failed to recognise Jesus as their Messiah they later followed Simon Bar Kokhba whom they believed would led to victory over the Romans. The attempt failed.

Jehovah always backed up his people when they were threatened, time and again rescuing them when they were completely outnumbered and turned to him for help.....but when they left him, he left them.
2 Chronicles 15:2...
"...Jehovah is with you as long as you prove to be with him; and if you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him he will leave you."

The Jews have not had God's backing for a very long time. The murder of Jesus Christ was the last straw. Where do you see God's blessing on Israel for the last 2,000 years? They are just another blood spilling nation....(Isaiah 1:15; Matthew 23:37-39)

I see Jesus as the Promised Christ, but I recognise Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh in a similar light. That is my faith and belief. The topic of the OP is the intent of the Gospel writers.

The intent of the gospel writers is clear to those who believe they are inspired by God. Without the resurrection, Jesus did not fulfill his mission.

Hebrews 9:11-12, 24....
"However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. . . . .For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

You see, we don't get to pick and choose what is fact and what is illustrative....the scriptures themselves do that.
Either it is all God's word as written....or none of it is.....

and the Jews rejected Christ.

Jesus said that salvation "originates with the Jews"....but Jesus himself demonstrated that it did not end with them....it ended with him, and those who follow him as the Christ. He was God's last prophet and there was no need for any other.
Part of Jesus' sign of the end of the age was a warning...
Matthew 24:4-5.....
"Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many."

So someone who claims to be a "Christ" or who is claiming to be in his role, is going to mislead many." It was foretold.

Recognising the Manifestation of God for this day and following His Teachings.

Since Christ's role is all about salvation....what are Baha'i's being saved from?

 

[CG Didymus]

Clearly the resurrection story as presented in the Gospels came to be understood as literal fact early in Christianity’s history.

Is there any indication that any early Church leader didn't take it literally. And some of those early Church leaders are claimed to have known some of the apostles. So I'm not saying that it isn't crazy to believe such a thing, but that I think the apostles and the gospel writers believed in the resurrection.

The stories are written that we may believe in Jesus.

But what were led to believe by what was said in those stories? That Jesus was a miracle man, and anyone that was blind, sick or crippled, that believed in him, was healed. He even cast out demons. Everything was made out to be that he had the power of God to do anything he wanted. So for to come back to life was not something that was that unusual for him or for God. The stories even have some of his followers doubting that he had resurrected, but the story says he proved himself to be alive. So that's why I think, that if it really didn't happen, those stories were made up to get people to believe in a Jesus that didn't really exist, but was a myth. And that is where the superstitions come in. They were told to fear Satan and God's judgement, but, if they turn to Jesus and trust in him, he would forgive their sins and save them from hell.

Through Jesus we will have Eternal life for He has conquered death.

But, if he didn't really come back to life, he didn't literally conquer death. Where Peter says that it is prophesied that God's Holy One wouldn't see corruption, is not correct. If only his spirit lived on, then Jesus isn't any different than anybody else. So that's why I think the "intent" of the writers was to build up a myth about a virgin born, God/man that rose from the dead.

 

[Dawnofhope]

How does that response address what I said? It is God who draws right hearted ones to his truth (John 6:44; 65) If that is the case, who is God drawing? If there is one truth and God is the one who guides us to it, what happens to those who are not drawn by him?...to those who cling to what is not truth?

We're talking about the personal qualities and attributes that enable us to draw closer to God. You made references to coming to Christ as children. I highlighted the qualities that enable us to enter into closer communion with Christ are present in people from other religious faiths and cultures. You now mention John 6:64-65. Jesus knew the hearts of those who were listening to His Teachings and could distinguish the sincere from the insincere, those who were attached to the flesh and those who were attracted to the Divine Fragrances. He tested them and those who lacked the necessary attributes for discipleship departed. However the qualities such as truthfulness, sincerity, devotion and sincerity are common to all persons.

I agree that truth is One and that God guides us. However we need to make efforts to understand His Teachings and apply them to our lives.

I believe that Paul answers that question....
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12...
“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Of course JWs view every 'non-Christian' religion or denomination of Christianity that isn't JW as under the operation of Satan. I find it ironic that a denomination within Christendom that has so many faults is so keen to exaggerate the faults of other religions and yet overlook its own (Matthew 7:1-4, Matthew 25:31-46).

Those who want to hang onto their own truth, (because it suits them) rather than acknowledging God's truth, will be permitted to keep their "delusion", which in the end will be exposed for what it is. No man is the judge however....Jesus has that job. “Many” he said, are going to come to disappointment....suffering his complete rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23) Who wants to be on the end of that stinging rebuke?

Sure. You view my religion and that of others as 'delusional' and 'false'. You imagine Jesus Himself would agree with you. Of course, it's more gratuitous proselytizing and you're off topic again.

If we are each equally confident in our beliefs, does that guarantee that God is the author of them? The Bible says that we have a common enemy who is capable of ‘blinding the minds’ of those who are not open to the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) This one, it is said, can “transform himself into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) in order to deceive those who like the “feel good” “God loves everyone” kind of faith that denies just about every punishment that God ever meted out to his people for their disobedience.
Conversely we have those whose aim is to 'kill the infidels' because they somehow have a duty to God to do so.
Its about 'who' you believe, isn't it?

So now having informed me I'm under the influence of Satan you've moved on to misrepresenting and attacking Islam ? Seriously @Deeje , have you ever taken the time to properly study Islam other than to attack it? I doubt if the JWs permit such a study? Besides the history of Christianity is riddled with racism, religious prejudice and genocide. So what you accuse Islam of, Christianity has done exactly the same. Muslims and Christians have often done terrible things by twisting and perverting their Sacred Scriptures. At least some denominations within Christianity have the integrity to acknowledge their contribution to war and atrocities. The JWs may claim to be a pacifist religion but the words of their followers echo the attitudes and values of their more aggressive Christian forefathers.

But what is the point of the lessons if we keep doing what God has already said offends him?

Exactly. This forum is a great opportunity to learn about other faiths and develop fellowship with peoples of other Faiths. It is not an arena for proselytizing.

Life after death in the scriptures depends entirely on resurrection....there is no other way for life to continue after death. There is no immortal soul that exits the body at death, so it's not an immediate transformation for the majority. We all have to wait for the establishment of God's Kingdom to fix everything that is wrong on this planet. (2 Peter 3:13)

I certainly accept that 1 Corinthians 15 is pivotal to an understanding of both the resurrection and life after death and these verses strongly link the two concepts together. But your understanding of this chapter appears to be based on taking scripture literally. However, other fundamentalists within Christianity also take this approach. The problem with discussing life after death is one can neither prove or disprove life after death exists. I believe in life after death and I believe there is Eternal life for anyone who turns to Jesus and walks sincerely with Him in the ways of God. I understand many Christians share that belief.

The point of mentioning the golden calf was that the Israelites thought that they were worshipping Jehovah, but by using the form of a god worshipped in a different religion, they were thereby committing idolatry....something God hates. No false religious beliefs or practices were tolerated by Israel’s God.....and still aren't to this day.

The point in you mentioning the golden calf appears to be more off topic proselytizing? It is a poor analogy. Other than being mentioned in the Torah we know next to nothing about the golden calf. What religion today worships the golden calf? Do you? Islam worships the God of Abraham as does the Baha'i Faith.

ehovah always backed up his people when they were threatened, time and again rescuing them when they were completely outnumbered and turned to him for help.....but when they left him, he left them.
2 Chronicles 15:2...
"...Jehovah is with you as long as you prove to be with him; and if you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him he will leave you."

The Jews have not had God's backing for a very long time. The murder of Jesus Christ was the last straw. Where do you see God's blessing on Israel for the last 2,000 years? They are just another blood spilling nation....(Isaiah 1:15; Matthew 23:37-39)

So now you wish to indulge in antisemitism? Israel appears to be doing well in many respects. The end of the Diaspora in association with the Return of Christ was prophesied in Luke 21:24. There is conflict and bloodshed, I agree. However the Middle East is extremely volatile and although the nation of Israel is far from perfect, there are other countries in the region that present a real and imminent threat. The Jewish people and the nation of Israel remain an important part of God's plan.

The intent of the gospel writers is clear to those who believe they are inspired by God. Without the resurrection, Jesus did not fulfill his mission.

Hebrews 9:11-12, 24....
"However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. . . . .For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

You see, we don't get to pick and choose what is fact and what is illustrative....the scriptures themselves do that.
Either it is all God's word as written....or none of it is.....

Other than saying "I'm right and you're wrong" I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not a biblical literalist so we're unlikely to agree on the fundamentals. For me, scriptures require careful and thoughtful interpretation. You don’t get to tell others how to view their scriptures.

Jesus said that salvation "originates with the Jews"....but Jesus himself demonstrated that it did not end with them....it ended with him, and those who follow him as the Christ.

All of Jesus disciples were exclusively Jews so of course Jesus affirmed the validity of Jewish scriptures. Why would He mention scriptures of other Faiths? Of course it didn't end with Jesus and those who follow Him. Read some history.

Since Christ's role is all about salvation....what are Baha'i's being saved from

As Jesus said:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:12

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is there any indication that any early Church leader didn't take it literally. And some of those early Church leaders are claimed to have known some of the apostles. So I'm not saying that it isn't crazy to believe such a thing, but that I think the apostles and the gospel writers believed in the resurrection..

All of the early Church writers I'm aware of supported the resurrection, probably because it was heretical to believe otherwise. The gnostic Christians were considered heretical but didn't believe in a literal resurrection. The only Christian writers that directly connects to the actual Apostles was the /JohnPolycarp/Irenaeus connection but this is controversial.

But what were led to believe by what was said in those stories? That Jesus was a miracle man, and anyone that was blind, sick or crippled, that believed in him, was healed. He even cast out demons. Everything was made out to be that he had the power of God to do anything he wanted. So for to come back to life was not something that was that unusual for him or for God. The stories even have some of his followers doubting that he had resurrected, but the story says he proved himself to be alive. So that's why I think, that if it really didn't happen, those stories were made up to get people to believe in a Jesus that didn't really exist, but was a myth. And that is where the superstitions come in. They were told to fear Satan and God's judgement, but, if they turn to Jesus and trust in him, he would forgive their sins and save them from hell.

That's correct.

But, if he didn't really come back to life, he didn't literally conquer death. Where Peter says that it is prophesied that God's Holy One wouldn't see corruption, is not correct. If only his spirit lived on, then Jesus isn't any different than anybody else. So that's why I think the "intent" of the writers was to build up a myth about a virgin born, God/man that rose from the dead.

Sounds reasonable. We're living in the twenty first century so our understanding of the Gospel accounts need to change by acknowledging the religious narrative presented in the Gospels is no longer a plausible historical narrative.

 

[Deeje]

Adrian, the reason I have responded to your post is the same reason I believe you responded to mine....to clarify things....
When I post in generalities, I am not accusing anyone of anything...I am merely stating things as the scriptures teach them....and if the cap fits..... This is a debate forum so feelings are best left at the door.
I'm sorry that you took exception to what I said...I did not mean for you to take them personally. My generalities also apply to myself and my brotherhood.

You now mention John 6:64-65. Jesus knew the hearts of those who were listening to His Teachings and could distinguish the sincere from the insincere, those who were attached to the flesh and those who were attracted to the Divine Fragrances. He tested them and those who lacked the necessary attributes for discipleship departed. However the qualities such as truthfulness, sincerity, devotion and sincerity are common to all persons.

And those qualities are very necessary in those who would be Christ's disciples.....but what was the first requirement that Jesus mentioned for worshippers of his God?......when asked how to gain everlasting life, Jesus answered by quoting Deuteronomy 6:5....
Luke 10:25-28....“‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”. . . .keep doing this and you will get life.”

If the first requirement is to "love Jehovah God" with every fibre of our being, and we don't worship Jehovah...the God who, in Israel's Law, demanded exclusive worship.....then the second requirement, without adhering to the first, only makes us a good humanitarians. God never said he would save good humanitarians, many of whom are atheists.

If you can't fulfill the first requirement, by loving the right God, then the second point becomes redundant. Why? Because it is motivated by love for humanity and not necessarily by love for God.
Nothing wrong with being a good humanitarian, but that is not the most important requirement. A "MUST" is an important thing.

You see, God was never going to save just "good" people even though they might benefit others in various ways....his first requirement for humankind in Eden was obedience, motivated by love for God and respect for him as their Creator. Go back to Eden and see that is was this very thing that caused all our troubles. If the humans had just done as they were told, because they loved God and respected his Sovereignty over them.....the world would not be in this mess...Jesus would never have had to come to earth as a human to offer his life, and there would have been no need for him to be appointed as King in what would be an unnecessary Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is what brings us back to God in reconciliation.

I agree that truth is One and that God guides us. However we need to make efforts to understand His Teachings and apply them to our lives.

I can't argue with that.....it was understood that if God had laws and principles that he gave to his people, that it was necessary to follow through with action on their part. What use is advice if we don't take it? What use are are laws if we don't keep them? What is the point of penalties if they are not enforced? JW's are no more exempt from that truth than anyone else.

Of course JWs view every 'non-Christian' religion or denomination of Christianity that isn't JW as under the operation of Satan. I find it ironic that a denomination within Christendom that has so many faults is so keen to exaggerate the faults of other religions and yet overlook its own (Matthew 7:1-4, Matthew 25:31-46).

Jesus himself indicated that a counterfeit form of Christianity would be sown by the devil in the same field as he had sown the "wheat". They would be identified by their "fruits" (or works) in obedience to Christ's teachings. What is ironic about making that known? God is not a reader of labels...he is a reader of hearts.

Daniel indicated that God would "cleanse, whiten and refine" his worshippers in this "time of the end". (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Just as Jesus called his disciples out of an apostate religious system, he has again called his disciples out of apostate Christendom. They are therefore NOT part of Christendom and, as a united global brotherhood, they never have been.

As you said, the truth is put out there and right-heated ones respond. Others hear the same message and make it into something else....either something more to their liking, or something to hate or ridicule. Remember Noah. Remember Jesus.

 

[Deeje]

Sure. You view my religion and that of others as 'delusional' and 'false'. You imagine Jesus Himself would agree with you. Of course, it's more gratuitous proselytizing and you're off topic again.

Just responding to your post. I didn't say you or your religion was delusional did I? It was a general statement based on what the scriptures tell us about the God of Abraham. (Matthew 7:21-23 will be fulfilled......so who will be left standing?)
Peter made an interesting statement.....
1 Peter 4:17-18...
"For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?”

"Judgment" is to "start with the house of God".....meaning that all the professed "believers" will be examined first as to fitness for citizenship in God's Kingdom. Love of God (the true God, (John 17:3) not any false ones) and obedience to his commands and the teachings of his son will determine the destiny of all. One thing is certain however....all who are accepted into the Kingdom and those who benefit from its reign, will all believe the same things. (1 Corinthians 1:10) There will be no divisions among them.

So now having informed me I'm under the influence of Satan you've moved on to misrepresenting and attacking Islam ? Seriously @Deeje , have you ever taken the time to properly study Islam other than to attack it? I doubt if the JWs permit such a study?

I am not misrepresenting anyone. I simply mentioned those who see "infidels" as those whom their God requires them to kill. Are these people exclusively Muslim? Or do we have people in many other 'organizations' who hate other groups and want to kill them? What about the white supremacists? The term "infidel" in Christianity means someone who lacks "fidelity".
According to Wiki, it "makes a clear differentiation between those who were baptized and followed the teachings of the Church versus those who are outside the faith." So you have misrepresented what I said, haven't you?

Besides the history of Christianity is riddled with racism, religious prejudice and genocide. So what you accuse Islam of, Christianity has done exactly the same. Muslims and Christians have often done terrible things by twisting and perverting their Sacred Scriptures. At least some denominations within Christianity have the integrity to acknowledge their contribution to war and atrocities. The JWs may claim to be a pacifist religion but the words of their followers echo the attitudes and values of their more aggressive Christian forefathers.

I believe that you are mistaken....since JW's are no part of Christendom, like Baha'i is not a "Christian" religion, we bear no responsibility for the atrocities of the church in past centuries. These were not "Christians" but 'weedy' imitators, who did not reflect Christ in their teachings or actions.
Do you accept responsibility for the bloodshed in Islam?

Exactly. This forum is a great opportunity to learn about other faiths and develop fellowship with peoples of other Faiths. It is not an arena for proselytizing.

And I have learned a great deal about other faiths here.....things that are straight from the horse's mouth....so much better than getting information second hand or from a disgruntled "ex".

TBH though, I find a lot of your responses rather evasive at times.

The problem with discussing life after death is one can neither prove or disprove life after death exists. I believe in life after death and I believe there is Eternal life for anyone who turns to Jesus and walks sincerely with Him in the ways of God. I understand many Christians share that belief.

But many Christians do not share Baha'i beliefs.....or JW beliefs....so we all have a choice before us....accept scripture as the word of God or reject it. It also depends on what you accept as "scripture" and who your prophets are. I see great similarity in that respect with Baha'i and the LDS. You each have prophets and scripture that no other "Christians" accept, but Baha'i do not even claim to be "Christian" and yet want others to accept their interpretation of Christ's teachings.....how does that even work?

The point in you mentioning the golden calf appears to be more off topic proselytizing? It is a poor analogy. Other than being mentioned in the Torah we know next to nothing about the golden calf. What religion today worships the golden calf? Do you? Islam worships the God of Abraham as does the Baha'i Faith.

Did you miss the point on purpose? The point was calling an Egyptian religious symbol, an image of one of their many gods, "Jehovah". It was fusing together two different religious beliefs, which we know resulted in God's punishment.

On occasion when the Baals were also worshipped along with Yahweh, it forced Elijah to ask the people... “How long will you be limping between two different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, follow him; but if Baʹal is, follow him!”.....so we have to make up our mind about who God is, and serve him the way that he commands. On that occasion, 450 Baal prophets were put to death at God's command.

So now you wish to indulge in antisemitism?

I am no more antisemitic than Jesus was.....read Matthew 23.

 

[Deeje]

Israel appears to be doing well in many respects. The end of the Diaspora in association with the Return of Christ was prophesied in Luke 21:24.

Luke 21 is Jesus' prophesy on the end of the present system of things....it is a dual prophesy pertaining also to the fall of Jerusalem in 70C.E.

Luke 21:24...
"And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations (Times of the Gentiles) are fulfilled."

"The appointed times of the nations" are written about in the prophesies of Daniel, who foresaw the march of world powers who would dominate God's people from Babylon down to the present day. In Jesus' day the Romans ruled God's people, but there were other world powers to come, so the kingdom of God in the hands of his Christ was to come in the time of the present world powers. Christ has not returned as judge and executioner just yet.....but it will not be long. We are living in the times of the "feet of iron mixed with clay". (Read Daniel's address to Nebuchadnezzar when interpreting the dream that God had given to the King in Daniel 2:31-45) Ours is the time that Jesus spoke about.....the time when he will address all the woes on this earth, remove all the rebels, and bring back the rule of God over his earth. It will not come about by human efforts because the cause of human ineptitude and selfishness has to be removed first.

There is conflict and bloodshed, I agree. However the Middle East is extremely volatile and although the nation of Israel is far from perfect, there are other countries in the region that present a real and imminent threat. The Jewish people and the nation of Israel remain an important part of God's plan.

Regardless of the political issues, if God was with Israel, her enemies would have no success. And if you examine the scriptures, you will see that when Israel allied herself with foreign nations to help her win her battles, God abandoned her to her enemies. Who has allied herself with Israel today?...a nation whose worship she despises.

Fleshly Israel disqualified herself from all contention in God's plans when she failed to accept the Messiah whom God sent to her, and orchestrated his murder. How can she now curry favor with his followers?

Other than saying "I'm right and you're wrong" I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not a biblical literalist so we're unlikely to agree on the fundamentals. For me, scriptures require careful and thoughtful interpretation. You don’t get to tell others how to view their scriptures.

That from a Baha'i is an interesting statement......since careful and thoughtful interpretation leads Christians to have an entirely different view of scripture than non-Christians. You don't get to tell Christians how to view their scripture either. Baha'i have no claim on Jesus Christ in any way and neither do Muslims. He is not your prophet and he is not represented in any way by the one you think replaced him.
Christ did not claim to ever return in the flesh.

All of Jesus disciples were exclusively Jews so of course Jesus affirmed the validity of Jewish scriptures. Why would He mention scriptures of other Faiths? Of course it didn't end with Jesus and those who follow Him. Read some history.

The Jews were commanded to remain separate from the nations round about them, and not to adopt their beliefs and practices. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) They ignored God's warning and when they introduced the practices of false worship, God punished them. When did God change his mind and accept all worship and prophets?
Jesus told the Jews....
"...the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many put faith in him.
31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Jesus was Jewish but he did not have a good thing to say about the Jewish leaders....why? He said that they taught "the commands of men as doctrines". (Matthew 15:7-9) So Jesus' Jewish disciples were taught by him to ignore those self-righteous frauds, and to follow him and obey his teachings, not theirs....this then would set them free from the needless burdens placed on their shoulders by the Pharisees. (Matthew 23:4)

As Jesus said:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:12

OK, John 3:5-13...in context, Jesus is addressing Gamaliel, (a Pharisee) who has asked Jesus what it means to be "born again"....

"Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed because I told you: You people must be born again. . . . .
9 In answer Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus replied: “Are you a teacher of Israel and yet do not know these things? 11 Most truly I say to you, what we know we speak, and what we have seen we bear witness to, but you do not receive the witness we give. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

So what has that verse got to do with what I asked you? What are Baha'i's saved from? It wasn't a difficult question surely?

Are Baha'i's "born again"? If so what does that mean? Unless one is "born from water and spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God"....what does it mean?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are Baha'i's "born again"? If so what does that mean? Unless one is "born from water and spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God"....what does it mean?

Water is compared to the Word, from the Word we are born again with the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi @Deeje ,
This thread is about the intent of the Gospel writers when writing about the resurrection. None of your posts yesterday is about that. I’m happy to continue our conversation or not elsewhere. You have my permission to start another thread if you wish.
Kind regards
Adrian

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi @Deeje ,
This thread is about the intent of the Gospel writers when writing about the resurrection. None of your posts yesterday is about that. I’m happy to continue our conversation or not elsewhere. You have my permission to start another thread if you wish.
Kind regards
Adrian

Personally I see we can no longer ask them what they were thinking, when they were offering the stories that were recorded.

As such, the only way I can answer your question is to consider if God has inspired answers after these stories were recorded from those that are now long gone.

So it is up to me to choose who had the Authority from God for such an interpretation? From my view in life, the intent has been made more clear by subsequent revelations from God, to which a Christian has not yet accepted.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

Hi Tony...since everything I have posted on this thread is in some way connected to the resurrection of Jesus, I hope it is OK to answer you response...

Water is compared to the Word, from the Word we are born again with the Spirit of Faith.

I guess that is one way to see it.....but for Christians, water baptism was a requirement for discipleship....but it was also for Jesus. But why was Jesus baptized?

For us, full immersion baptism explains the “water”.....because it symbolized a death to ones former life course and being raised with a new direction and purpose in life....to serve God and his Christ to the best of our ability in our circumstances. So a resurrection is even involved in baptism.

And at Pentecost, Jesus’ disciples were anointed by God’s spirit to become part of his kingdom as “kings and priests” in that heavenly arrangement. These are resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6; Romans 6:3-4) That anointing is the “spirit”.

In the Bible, in order to be “born again” these ones have to die in the flesh and be resurrected in a spirit body so as to be able to live in the heavenly realm. It is God who transforms these ones to become “a new creation”.....i.e. to be given a 'new birth' as a completely different lifeform. Angels are created as spirit creatures, but these are former humans who are now given the privilege of attaining a very different form of life in assisting Christ as King and High Priests of God’s Kingdom.

But not all will receive this anointing because these have been chosen for a special role as rulers and priests in the Kingdom....there also has to be subjects, or else the Kingdom makes no sense. Who are these subjects then?

What is God’s kingdom and it’s purpose in Baha’i beliefs?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is God’s kingdom and it’s purpose in Baha’i beliefs?

To me that is the intent of the resurrection stories.

God's Kingdom is for us all to know and Love God. To know what this Kingdom is, we must embrace what is contained within the resurrection stories.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

All of the early Church writers I'm aware of supported the resurrection, probably because it was heretical to believe otherwise. The gnostic Christians were considered heretical but didn't believe in a literal resurrection. The only Christian writers that directly connects to the actual Apostles was the /JohnPolycarp/Irenaeus connection but this is controversial.

Sounds reasonable. We're living in the twenty first century so our understanding of the Gospel accounts need to change by acknowledging the religious narrative presented in the Gospels is no longer a plausible historical narrative.

Something I bring up now and again is the Mormons. Both of us I'm sure would agree that most of them seem to be very good, honest and spiritually, religious people. But do we agree with the Book of Mormon? I don't. I think it is totally made up fiction. But probably lots of Mormons have become better people because they believe in the Book of Mormon. And maybe, I'd imagine, believe it to be literally true. But, if it was fake. If there were no golden plates and no special spectacles that Joseph Smith used to translate it, then what? What was his intent? To tell an embellished allegorical story? And make it clear that it was fictional? No, I think he meant it to be believed. I think he meant for people to believe he spoke to an angel and that he translated the things that were written on those Golden Plates.

So, to me, the gospel could very well be similar. Stories that were meant to be believed to get people to believe in an invisible God. And that God had sent his Son down to die to save us. But that God didn't let his Son die and stay dead. He brought him back to life and then brought him on up to heaven. Sure, today, how could anyone believe that literally. But 2000 years ago, why not? And I really don't think a story that was known to be fictional and to be filled with embellishments would have gotten people to believe as they do.

But then what do we do with the Baha'i interpretation and explanation? It, I'd imagine, should be accepted and believed in to be literally true... that whatever Baha'u'llah or any of the other Baha'i leaders have said... is what Baha'i should believe. But, I can't. Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection being that the followers, after three days, started remembering and teaching the thing that Jesus had told them? And thus, brought the "body" of Christ, meaning his followers, back to life? Sorry, that still makes what is written in the gospels a total and completely fabricated lie to me... if in fact it didn't happen.

 

[rational experiences]

The teachings said nature garden not a man or woman evicted man and woman from its body.

Science confession. Science data use by study was the advice written.

The end advice never give God a name or your nations DNA by name will be eradicated.

The Bible statement because it occurred.

Jesus a prophecised man returned baby DNA life would be born when immaculate even balanced was returned.

By savior star. Asteroid wandering body

Foretold.

Reasons. Man scientist ape man exodus human genesis DNA.

Jesus a newly born man son said I remember. I am spiritual by my father man origins living caring just a healer not a occult man.

Science said eve returned to holy womb evening with no UFO.

It had ended it's sacrifice attack.

It was documented and real.

Then life given returned was sacrificed again.

Temple pyramid science proven cause no argument.

Rome even blew up temple from Port as the proof evil choice science.

Statement. By not listening to advice now UFO attack will return.

It did. Shroud kept as human evidence.

No argument.

Then Baha'i mind affected life said immaculate savior gases returned mass again. Wrote evidence.

Was not lying. It however was not prophecised as science knew already it had caused problem.

Science temple history was stopped.

When new late 1800s nuclear experiments began earth was UFO increased attacked. Vacuum holding UFO was stopped radiation event burst burnt replaced cold savior mass hit Russia.

UFO reactive again.

Psyche changed.
Phenomena increased.
Strange human beliefs teachings emerged caused by UFO effect.

Bahai last holy saviour observations needed as proof of the history life attacked life saved by spatial changed.

Lucky it was observed and heeded as humans mental decline began again in returned UFO effect.

 

[Deeje]

To me that is the intent of the resurrection stories.

These are very vague responses Tony.....can you be more specific?

God's Kingdom is for us all to know and Love God. To know what this Kingdom is, we must embrace what is contained within the resurrection stories.

How?...and what does that have to do with being "born again"? Why was there a need to be "born again"?

And how does the prophesy in Daniel about the coming of God's Kingdom in the time of the present day rulers of this world, fit in with what Baha'i's believe about the future?

After describing the march of world powers from Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome and then to Britain (presented as different parts of an immense image seen in a divinely inspired dream in Daniel ch 2) we see an alliance in these last days with Britain and America. These are the days of democratic rule pictured by 'the iron mixed with clay'. The iron like power of governments was weakened in this period by the introduction of rule by the people. Democracy today has been another failure in man's attempt at self-rule.

In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, God's kingdom is seen as a huge stone cut out of a mountain (not by human hands) striking the image on its feet and bringing the entire structure crumbling down, and Daniel describes what this means for those of us living in the time of the end.....

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever". (Daniel 244)

God's Kingdom was going to "come" in spectacular fashion, by crushing all failed human rulerships out of existence, and then replacing them with God's rulership over the whole world....this is the rulership that humans threw away in the beginning. Christ came to get it back for us. That is what his death and resurrection means.....Jesus paid the redemption price to set us free....and return us to the world that we were supposed to have in the beginning....a world free of crime and violence, free of of immorality and infidelity.....a world where humans can use their free will to love God and each other. It will never come about by human efforts....because God first has to rid the earth of the "goats" who are stealing the peace and security from everyone else. By "crushing" these ones out of existence, he can guarantee a world of peace and harmony for his worshippers.

 

[rational experiences]

Science. Does not use human sex as life continuance. Our advice. Sex not in any scientific thesis.
Warning advice

Sex is why anyone lives today. Your two parents human not even your life as one self. Awareness innate. Listen to it.

Warning.

Warning statements made to stop you. Bible to think ask questions challenge science.

Born again is by human sex only.

You are meant to make that self-conscious spiritual life...higher self not irradiated saved life advice. To yourself after reading fed back science thesis phi. By thinking as one self not coerced.

Bible HEARD recordings.
Sacrificed life DNA not living anymore gone out of DNA. Anyone sick owns sacrificed gone DnA. Anyone not perfect body looks. Gone. Anyone not spiritual living caring without ego. DNA gone

Everyone's DNa gone in various states.

Bahai warning said we are always learning

Bahai human aware reading stories using memories says no Baha'i event. Question was it real.
Psychic advice. Psyche advice. Yes real but now gone. Why you don't believe.

Same said about Jesus as natural aware mind says Jesus no longer existed as saved baby.

Evidence shroud second UFO sacrifice came back from released heart core.

Happened after 33AD event.

Russian event took away Baha'i returned notified asteroid savior mass. Spirit gas replacement.

Why you pose questions based on memory psyche advice. We own human family supported realisation. We teach each other by shared advice

 

[Marcion]

But then what do we do with the Baha'i interpretation and explanation? It, I'd imagine, should be accepted and believed in to be literally true... that whatever Baha'u'llah or any of the other Baha'i leaders have said... is what Baha'i should believe. But, I can't. Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection being that the followers, after three days, started remembering and teaching the thing that Jesus had told them? And thus, brought the "body" of Christ, meaning his followers, back to life? Sorry, that still makes what is written in the gospels a total and completely fabricated lie to me... if in fact it didn't happen.

The Bahai narrative seems to stand on the shoulders of other religious ideologies rather than dig down into the tantric base of spiritual development. Religious ideologies are to a large extent embellished and modified versions of earlier religious ideologies but the embellishments and modifications are not coming from practical spirituality (not from intuitive science) but from the religious imagination.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Something I bring up now and again is the Mormons. Both of us I'm sure would agree that most of them seem to be very good, honest and spiritually, religious people. But do we agree with the Book of Mormon? I don't. I think it is totally made up fiction. But probably lots of Mormons have become better people because they believe in the Book of Mormon. And maybe, I'd imagine, believe it to be literally true. But, if it was fake. If there were no golden plates and no special spectacles that Joseph Smith used to translate it, then what? What was his intent? To tell an embellished allegorical story? And make it clear that it was fictional? No, I think he meant it to be believed. I think he meant for people to believe he spoke to an angel and that he translated the things that were written on those Golden Plates.

Like you I find the story of Joseph Smith unbelievable but I see Mormons as Christians and their faith can aid them to become better people.

So, to me, the gospel could very well be similar. Stories that were meant to be believed to get people to believe in an invisible God. And that God had sent his Son down to die to save us. But that God didn't let his Son die and stay dead. He brought him back to life and then brought him on up to heaven. Sure, today, how could anyone believe that literally. But 2000 years ago, why not? And I really don't think a story that was known to be fictional and to be filled with embellishments would have gotten people to believe as they do.

It was important the stories were presented as literally true even though the Gospel writers knew they weren’t. I agree.

But then what do we do with the Baha'i interpretation and explanation? It, I'd imagine, should be accepted and believed in to be literally true... that whatever Baha'u'llah or any of the other Baha'i leaders have said... is what Baha'i should believe. But, I can't. Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection being that the followers, after three days, started remembering and teaching the thing that Jesus had told them? And thus, brought the "body" of Christ, meaning his followers, back to life? Sorry, that still makes what is written in the gospels a total and completely fabricated lie to me... if in fact it didn't happen.

Part of the journey is getting to understand ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Bahá’u’lláh as we come to understand Christ, Paul and the Gospel writers. In regards the resurrection of Christ, ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s comments in Some Answered Questions are like a few small brush strokes on an open canvas. It is for us to complete the picture to whatever extent we desire. It is not a completed picture we must accept as is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bahai narrative seems to stand on the shoulders of other religious ideologies rather than dig down into the tantric base of spiritual development. Religious ideologies are to a large extent embellished and modified versions of earlier religious ideologies but the embellishments and modifications are not coming from practical spirituality (not from intuitive science) but from the religious imagination.

This is another mystery of the resurrection.

The old is resurrected and made new.

It is the new that becomes the base for our spiritual development, the old is cast off.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How?...and what does that have to do with being "born again"? Why was there a need to be "born again"?

To be resurrected, is to be born again from the flesh into the Spirit.

Personally I have found the answer that resonate with my soul Deeje.

I have had many hours of these conversations with my JW friends. I find it a lot easier to say very little.

Regards Tony