What was the Death of Jesus about?

[blü 2]

What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

In Mark he puts it on the table right near the start:

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

and at the end he doesn’t take the midnight special camel train out of Jerusalem to points east, but deliberately avoids every chance to escape:

Mark 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. 34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch." 35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Matthew 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Luke 22:22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Luke 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."​

The tone in John is different, but the determination to die is still foremost:

John 17:4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

 

[Bree]

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

What a great post and great questions.

Q1. It was necessary for Jesus to die because according to Gods justice, the penalty of every sinner is death. Sadly, we are all 'born' sinners. We didnt have a choice not to be a sinner because we were born from Adam, a man who chose sin over obedience. Romans5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
The scriptures also tell us that when we die, our sins are forgiven. Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin But who wants to die? Will you happily to say to God, Please let me die so my sins can be forgiven? No. None of us want to do that.
So Jesus did it for us!
He willingingly died in our place so that our sins could be forgiven without the need for our own personal death.


Q2. What did Jesus actually achieve?
The prospects of everlasting life for each one of us. God will forgive our sins without first calling for the death penalty. So his death has achieved a great justice for all mankind whether they realise it or not. It means you can now go to God and 'ask' for forgiveness and God will give you forgiveness. What this means in reality is that God will not demand the death penalty from you. Your life prospects have changed and you can have a personal meaningful relationship with your creator and by means of that relationship you can live forever.

Q3.
God has always used intermediaries. The only time no intermediary was necessary was when Adam and Eve lived as perfect humans in the Garden of Eden before they sinned. God walked with Adam in the garden as the scriptures tell us at Gen 3:8 Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” After that time, God has removed himself from sinful mankind and only spoke by means of his angles or human spokespersons such as the prophets, moses and Jesus Christ. The Garden of Eden was a true temple of God where God himself was ruler and mankind could commune with him freely.

 

[King Phenomenon]

RESURRECTION
Yeeha baby!!!

 

[F1fan]

What a great post and great questions.

Q1. It was necessary for Jesus to die because according to Gods justice, the penalty of every sinner is death. Sadly, we are all 'born' sinners. We didnt have a choice not to be a sinner because we were born from Adam, a man who chose sin over obedience. Romans5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
The scriptures also tell us that when we die, our sins are forgiven. Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin But who wants to die? Will you happily to say to God, Please let me die so my sins can be forgiven? No. None of us want to do that.
So Jesus did it for us!
He willingingly died in our place so that our sins could be forgiven without the need for our own personal death.

Except we mere mortals do in fact still die. So there's a theological bounced check your account will be debited.

Q2. What did Jesus actually achieve?
The prospects of everlasting life for each one of us. God will forgive our sins without first calling for the death penalty. So his death has achieved a great justice for all mankind whether they realise it or not. It means you can now go to God and 'ask' for forgiveness and God will give you forgiveness. What this means in reality is that God will not demand the death penalty from you. Your life prospects have changed and you can have a personal meaningful relationship with your creator and by means of that relationship you can live forever.

Why didn't God just design it that way from the start? Are you suggesting God makes mistakes and it needs to fix creation?

Q3.
God has always used intermediaries. The only time no intermediary was necessary was when Adam and Eve lived as perfect humans in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

How were they perfect if they were capable of sinning?

God walked with Adam in the garden as the scriptures tell us at Gen 3:8 Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” After that time, God has removed himself from sinful mankind and only spoke by means of his angles or human spokespersons such as the prophets, moses and Jesus Christ. The Garden of Eden was a true temple of God where God himself was ruler and mankind could commune with him freely.

Don't you find it odd that if a God really wanted to create perfect beings that it would create them capable of being obedient to the rules? God didn't do that. God created them easily tempted, and sent the tempting intermediary in the form of Satan. So Adam and Eve were set up by God to fail, and sin. So did God change its mind later and have regret, so sent Jesus?

 

[blü 2]

Q1. It was necessary for Jesus to die because according to Gods justice, the penalty of every sinner is death.

Thank you for your reply.

Where does the Tanakh say that? For example, the Garden story in Genesis never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer &c (regardless of what Paul says); and as Ezekiel 18 makes clear throughout, but not least in Ezekiel 18:20, no one is born a sinner, since sin is not heritable:

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

He willingingly died in our place so that our sins could be forgiven without the need for our own personal death.

I know that's the usual explanation, but it's not a useful explanation because it doesn't say WHY a death was required. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but God sacrificing [his] son to [him]self sounds ... what, both barbaric and pointless? Wholly beside the point for an omnipotent being?

Q2. What did Jesus actually achieve? The prospects of everlasting life for each one of us.

It's true that there are ambiguities in the Tanakh about whether death is the end, or whether a later resurrection will occur (and in 1 Samuel 28:8 the lady calls up what appears to the ghost of Samuel).

So God would have to have changed [his] mind to make Jesus' message in this regard relevant, no?

Are you saying that all the Jewish people who had died with Yahweh as their God were disadvantaged by that fact, were treated differently post-mortally to the Christian followers of the same God?

Q3.
God has always used intermediaries. The only time no intermediary was necessary was when Adam and Eve lived as perfect humans in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

There are a number of later instances where God communicates directly with humans: [his] command to Abraham regarding Isaac (Genesis 22:1+), [his] command to Moses to beard Pharaoh (Exodus 8:1); the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1+); [his] coming upon Jephthah when the agreement was made, victory in return for human sacrifice (Judges 11:29-31), [his] conversations with David (eg 2 Samuel 21:1+) and so on. So God indeed had [his] representatives, but as reported, [he] was also personally available.

Further than that, there is no precedent in the Tanakh for the idea that the only way to God is through an intermediary ie Jesus. (It appears to be a late borrowing from Gnostic teachings, reflected in particular in Paul and by the author of John.)

 

[rational experiences]

Science human theists said the angels of God O bodies fell from the eternal form. They burst and burnt and went to hell.

A percentage were saved by God as gods for not rebelling and became planets. Suns remained in hell.

Science space thesis by thinker human is first. Whilst a human stands on their God O planet earth.

Human.
Living.
Storyteller.
Said space was burnt by God exploding. So a thin veil of clear gases the mother's spirit womb sits in space.

Why you can float in space as space is a thin body of gas sitting in emptiness.

The Lost eternal form in space was the gods sacrifice.

Nothing to do with humans.

Was a separated loss from original form eternal. The eternal had always existed and changed its own body.

Gases from God history O angels put gases by mass back into space.

We know we came from the eternal ourselves as humans. All animal spirits pre formed. Changed form of spirit eternal by entering water microbe atmosphere.

Why we live separately. Why we can move around inside heavens. Why we live and die.

We have water and microbes inside our bodies.

Ask why life was given unnatural sacrifice and death. Science wanted to go back to the eternal. The only reason.

Natural supported a human being a human.

Science wanted us to return to being the eternal form.

 

[74x12]

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

Adam(man) was condemned to die. Without resurrection he would remain dead. Jesus died to bring the resurrection.

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

It achieved immortality. Or triumph of life over death. This means Adam can live again.

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

The Law of Moses also had an intermediary which is the priestly class of Aaron. Jesus is intermediary of a new Covenant. The New covenant is nothing more or less than the resurrection or eternal life.

It's God's "new deal" with Adam(mankind).

 

[George-ananda]

I think Jesus' death was a product of the politics and fanaticism of the time. I don't think there was anything necessary in it.

 

[Neuropteron]

What was the death of Jesus about?

Grateful for illumination.

Hi,

WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?
According to the Bible, mankind's need for ransom came about through the rebellion in Eden.
Adam sold himself and his descendants into sin. According to God's law, sin leads to death. Since the price of repurchase requires equivalency, a perfect and sinless man is required to die to satisfy the legal required of the law, thus blood is involved.


What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?
Jehovah could have achieved anything he wants since he is almighty. However simply ignoring his own laws is not something he wants to do since he is a God of justice.

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?
Jesus's death means that anyone that accepts his sacrifice and "exercise" faith in it can be absolved from inherited sin and have the hope of life eternal.
It also means that we can speak to our creator using Christ as mediator instead of having to offer animal sacrifices and going through the many requirements of the Mosaic law.


The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

The intermediary was the law, you could not access God without going through all of its rituals. Now Christ is our mediator.

Cheers

 

[blü 2]

Adam(man) was condemned to die. Without resurrection he would remain dead. Jesus died to bring the resurrection.

Thanks for your reply.

Well, Adam and Eve in the story were made mortal, yes; I don't see any 'condemned' there, though.

It achieved immortality. Or triumph of life over death. This means Adam can live again.

This is where the plot outwits me.

Why would God need to send Jesus in order to give Adam postmortal life? Does that not compel the conclusion that postmortal life was an afterthought of God's?

The Law of Moses also had an intermediary which is the priestly class of Aaron. Jesus is intermediary of a new Covenant.

Why were the Jews not given the New Covenant in the first place?

The New covenant is nothing more or less than the resurrection or eternal life.

Same question.

And are you able to illuminate me on why Jesus had to die? Why would a death be necessary for God to achieve anything [he] wanted?

 

[blü 2]

RESURRECTION
Yeeha baby!!!

But why would anyone ─ in this case Jesus ─ have to die before there could be resurrection?

Isn't God omnipotent?

And isn't God benevolent? What's a benevolent God doing having anyone, let alone [his] son, put to an agonizing death?

 

[King Phenomenon]

But why would anyone ─ in this case Jesus ─ have to die before there could be resurrection?

Isn't God omnipotent?

And isn't God benevolent? What's a benevolent God doing having anyone, let alone [his] son, put to an agonizing death?

You’re getting way too deep for me

 

[blü 2]

I think Jesus' death was a product of the politics and fanaticism of the time. I don't think there was anything necessary in it.

Given an historical Jesus, that's a live possibility, yes. But it doesn't account for the way the story is presented in the gospels, or in particular what seem to me to be arbitrary features and inconsistencies in those stories, which is what I hope this thread will illuminate.

 

[blü 2]

You’re getting way too deep for me

Goodness! My apologies!

 

[blü 2]

Hi,

Hi. Thanks for your reply.

WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?
According to the Bible, mankind's need for ransom came about through the rebellion in Eden.

But if you read the Garden story in Genesis there is no rebellion. In the story, Adam and Eve are denied knowledge of good and evil, so they can't form an intention to do wrong so they're incapable of sin.

On top of that, the story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer, or anything of the kind. God states [his] reasons for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden at Genesis 3:22-23, and they're none of the above.

According to God's law, sin leads to death.

Where does the Tanakh say that?

Since the price of repurchase requires equivalency, a perfect and sinless man is required to die to satisfy the legal required of the law, thus blood is involved.

First, as I pointed out above, there's no such "repurchase" needed, because "original sin" isn't present in the story and doesn't appear in history till late in the 2nd century BCE among the Jews of Alexandria.

Second, what "law" are you referring to?

Third, even if all those points be conceded, why would that stop an omnipotent and benevolent being from doing this (or anything else [he] wanted, without bloodshed, agony, inflicted torment?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?
Jehovah could have achieved anything he wants since he is almighty. However simply ignoring his own laws is not something he wants to do since he is a God of justice.

Again I ask, what 'own laws'? Where are they set out? How are they worded?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?
Jesus's death means that anyone that accepts his sacrifice and "exercise" faith in it can be absolved from inherited sin and have the hope of life eternal.

But as I said, there's no inherited sin in the Garden story. Nor is sin heritable: Ezekiel 18:20.

It also means that we can speak to our creator using Christ as mediator instead of having to offer animal sacrifices and going through the many requirements of the Mosaic law.

But why would any follower of Yahweh ever have needed a mediator to speak to their God? There's no mention of such a need in the Tanakh that I can recall ─ you pray directly to Yahweh.

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

The intermediary was the law, you could not access God without going through all of its rituals. Now Christ is our mediator.

I don't think that's correct. Jews prayed directly to their God all the time, just as they still do, as far as I'm aware.

The idea that a mediator is needed seems to be a novelty.

 

[Bree]

Except we mere mortals do in fact still die. So there's a theological bounced check your account will be debited.

the death of Jesus did not bring about the immediate abolishment of death. The promised changes take place after God has removed Satan the devil. Once God removes disobedient mankind and all his enemies, human and spiritual, then he will bring in a new world that can heal and be restored to what he originally purposed.
The book of Revelation speaks of that time and it foretells
Revelation 21:3-4 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.+ 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+ neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+ The former things have passed away.”

Why didn't God just design it that way from the start? Are you suggesting God makes mistakes and it needs to fix creation?

How were they perfect if they were capable of sinning?

Don't you find it odd that if a God really wanted to create perfect beings that it would create them capable of being obedient to the rules? God didn't do that. God created them easily tempted, and sent the tempting intermediary in the form of Satan. So Adam and Eve were set up by God to fail, and sin. So did God change its mind later and have regret, so sent Jesus?

perfection does not mean people were incapable of disobedience. If that were the case then we would not have free will. We would be preprogrammed like robots. God created mankind with decision making ability. Adam and eve chose to misuse that free will but millions have proved that they can use their decision making ability in the right way and continue to remain obedient to God. Angles have remained obedient, Jesus remained obedient. Christs followers remained obedient even in their imperfect state.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Anyone planning on not dying?

Might need a new plan. See Krishna, Buddha, Christ etc for details.

 

[Brian2]

What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

More of a mission to be obedient to His Father and knowing that would lead to death and not avoiding it.

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

A snap of the fingers could have given forgiveness to everyone even those who did not want it and who were not repentant. Same problem would remain however.
God could have snapped the fingers and changed humans so that they did not sin but God wants people who choose not to sin and are not forced. We would not be human if that happened. He may as well have made us into robots at the start with Adam and Eve.

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

Jesus started His Kingdom so that people could join and be changed voluntarily through God's work in us. Christians are normal people and act in evil ways much of the time and are influenced by what is going on in the world around them but the world has been changed since Christianity came on the scene. Humans are now (in the West) seen as equals with non seen as of lesser value under the law. That's the theory anyway. We tend to think that this is how it should be and how could it be seen any differently but it is seen differently in other parts of the world still and it was in Jesus day. From this has flowed many things in terms of human rights and humanitarian assistance.

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

The Jews had the High Priest as intermediary and could not go confidently to God without the sacrifices that assured their forgiveness under the law. Jesus now in the High Priest and we are joined to Jesus and seen as having forgiveness and His righteousness and can come to the Father with the assurance of acceptance.

 

[Brian2]

But why would anyone ─ in this case Jesus ─ have to die before there could be resurrection?

Isn't God omnipotent?

And isn't God benevolent? What's a benevolent God doing having anyone, let alone [his] son, put to an agonizing death?

God's Son is just like His Father and wants the same things. He was willing to do the deed because He loves His Father and loves us. Jesus prayed that if it was possible, take it away from me (in Gethsemane) If it was possible then it would have been taken away but it seems it was not possible. That was the only way and both the Father and Son knew it even before humanity was created.

 

[Brian2]

Why would God need to send Jesus in order to give Adam postmortal life? Does that not compel the conclusion that postmortal life was an afterthought of God's?

God's intention was for humans to live forever, thus the tree of life.
God knew what they would do, sin, but God was not going to let that or Satan win. God's intention still remained and how to achieve it had already been worked out.

Why were the Jews not given the New Covenant in the first place?

It would not be a new and better covenant then. The Jews were a bit of a disappointment but God had brought this people into being to be a witness to Him and what He was doing. Start off small with a person and then a group of people and then an embryonic nation then a full fledged nation then bring in the promised New Covenant which God knew that only some of them would accept and then take the new Covenant to the Gentiles. This probably does not answer the question but it's a start.