1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What was energy of universe at big bang?

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by Unes, May 21, 2017.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    I have couple questions regarding the following YouTube video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTUsOWtxKKA&t=14s


    1. When Universe was at size of one billionth of a proton, what was the energy of the universe at that point?

    2. It says during the inflation expansion of universe, the space mass density of universe stayed constant. If this was the case, as the universe got bigger, then where this extra energy was coming from?


    Thanks for your response.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    16,840
    Ratings:
    +8,029
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith


    Theoretically if this version of the theory is correct; matter.

    No extra energy, matter converted to energy upon expansion.
     
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    19,598
    Ratings:
    +22,933
    Religion:
    Non-theist

    This somewhat depends on which version of inflation is correct. There are several possibilities and we can't distinguish (yet) which one is correct.

    So, if the Higgs particle is the inflaton that drives inflation, the energy of inflation is driven by the fact that the 'false vacuum' that has no Higgs particles has a higher energy density than the 'usual vacuum' that has such Higgs particles. @sayak83 has a very good set of posts on this topic.

    Singularities and beginning of the universe
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    31,028
    Ratings:
    +11,820
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Undefined. To estimate the energy you'd need to know the size of the universe and the energy in it. You must not assume that Guth is correct merely because he is clever.

    Its part of the theory, so models using that theory will attempt to test it and to propose possible answers to your question. Its not reasonable to ask us on a religious forum to propose information that is not available.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,035
    Ratings:
    +8,626
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Here is what the standard theory of inflation says according to Alan Guth

    The increase in mass probably seems strange at first, because it sounds like a gross violation of the principle of energy conservation. Mass and energy are equivalent, so we are claiming that the energy of the matter within the patch increased by a colossal factor. The reason this is possible is that the conservation of energy has a sort of a loophole, which physicists have known at least since the 1930s,[​IMG]but haven't talked about very much. Energy is always conserved; there are no loopholes to that basic statement. However, we normally think of energies as always being positive. If that were true, then the large amount of energy that we see in the universe could not possibly have gotten here unless the universe started with a lot of energy. However, this is the loophole: energies are not always positive. In particular, the energy of a gravitational field is negative. This statement, that the energy of a gravitational field is negative, is true both in the context of the Newtonian theory of gravity and also in the more sophisticated context of general relativity.

    So, during inflation, total energy is conserved. As more and more positive energy (or mass) appears as the patch expands at constant density, more and more negative energy is simultaneously appearing in the gravitational field that fills the region. The total energy is constant, and it remains incredibly small because the negative contribution of gravity cancels the enormous positive energy of the matter. The total energy, in fact, could very plausibly be zero. It is quite possible that there is a perfect cancellation between the negative energy of gravity and the positive energy of everything else.

    Cosmic Questions - Guth: How Does Inflation Work?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thank you sayak83.
    According to this passage the energy of universe at the end of inflation was almost zero.
    Did the positive energy and the negative energy somehow get separated from each other?
    Or, they are jointly forming our universe at present condition? then, in this case all our experiences is merely founded on nothing!
     
    #6 Unes, May 21, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,053
    Ratings:
    +11,921
    Religion:
    Atheist
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    No problem. Glad to help.

    .
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. ThePainefulTruth

    ThePainefulTruth Romantic-Cynic

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,220
    Ratings:
    +451
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Deist
    This doesn't account for two recent discoveries: 1) Inflation is accelerating, and 2) the universe at the visible horizon is not an edge, but the point at which the expansion goes superluminal and disappears--so we don't know how much mass is in the universe or what is driving the acceleration of inflation.
    In case anyone is wondering, the fabric of the universe is not limited to Einstein's speed of light speed limit, so it doesn't violate Relativity.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    19,598
    Ratings:
    +22,933
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    No, they did not. The negative energy is in the gravitational fields and the positive energy is in the particles. Since the gravitational field is produced by particles.....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thank you Polymath257.

    So, according to this model the energy of a particle combined with its gravity field is zero. Am I correct on this? Then, what about energy of photons, do they also have gravity field? But photons do not have any mass, so I assume they do not have any gravity. This is so confusing, could you please explain more.
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    19,598
    Ratings:
    +22,933
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Actually, mass, energy, and momentum all have gravitational effects. The dominant one is usually from mass, but the others can be relevant in extreme circumstances.

    Edit: In fact, in the early universe (first few hundred thousand years), the gravitational effects of photons were dominant over those of 'matter'.
     
    #11 Polymath257, May 22, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thank you Polymath257.
    So, can we conclude that according to this model the total energy of this universe is very close to zero? And, this universe is built merely by separation of positive and negative energy?
     
    #12 Unes, May 22, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  13. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    10,294
    Ratings:
    +5,130
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Zero (electronvolts).

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  14. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,035
    Ratings:
    +8,626
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Why would net zero energy imply nothingness?
    It is entirely true that our kind of matter does require positive energy, but it is also clear that space-time and quantum fields are certain types of "thing" and they exist (apparently) with zero, positive or negative energy.

    I would also caution against over indulgence in philosophical or religious speculations based on physics that is on the edge of our current understanding of reality. I do understand that all of us desire to know and understand the true reality of the world and ourselves before we die. But consider how many myths, stories, religions and philosophies have been created for this purpose over the last 10,000 years and how many have turned out to be true in any sense of the term as our knowledge has advanced. Even models of science as successful (and still successful) as Newtonian physics have turned out to be mere approximations to deeper realities overturning centuries of metaphysical speculations based on it. Science is very good at what it does, creating empirical models that explain the phenomenon we observe in the world and predict them in advance so that we have manipulative power over them to develop our civilization and technology. But this reality we see is extremely extremely deep and layered and how deep this rabbit hole goes nobody can foretell. If Newton was merely dipping his toes on the beach, we are still on the shallows, there is a lot that is left yet before we plumb the true depths of this ocean of phenomena surrounding us, and is us.

    So, I will tell you what insights have been gathered by cosmology as of now. But I will advice caution about building metaphysics out of it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,035
    Ratings:
    +8,626
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Also pressure and tension have gravitational effects. Normally negligible but it dominates the false vacuum of inflation fields (if they exist).
     
  16. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thank you sayak83.
    Copernicus, Galileo, and Darwin shocked our religious beliefs to its core. We do form our beliefs and our opinions based on the information that we get from various sources, and that includes science.

    Anyway, can we conclude that according to this inflation model the total energy of this universe is very close to zero? Then, this universe is built merely by separation of positive and negative energy.
     
  17. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,035
    Ratings:
    +8,626
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    As far as I understand it, yes.
     
  18. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    19,598
    Ratings:
    +22,933
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    The word 'merely' sounds like an understatement, but that is our current understanding of what happens.
     
  19. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    19,598
    Ratings:
    +22,933
    Religion:
    Non-theist

    Yes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,035
    Ratings:
    +8,626
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    By the way are you concerned that our current ideas of the origin of the universe looks so much like a stock market bubble? If it proves wrong, sociologists are going to have a field day. :p
     
Loading...