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Featured What type of atheist are you?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by leroy, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    That's what I was getting at: you defined "God" in terms of your beliefs about gods, and defined atheism in terms of that God. This is chauvinistic.

    Not until I'm satisfied that you're asking the question in good faith. So far, signs suggest you aren't.

    Edit: scratch that. Your OP is too full of false statements and bad assumptions about Santa, aliens and the extinction of the dinosaurs. I can't be bothered to sort out that mess; I'm not going down that rabbit hole.
     
    #101 9-10ths_Penguin, Nov 1, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  2. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Yes that was stablished 150 years ago....

    Remember the original challenge?

    I agree in the 1800s and 1700s many gaps where getting smaller, those where hard times for theists..

    But within the last 100 years there are no scientific discoveries that make the existence of god less likelly and many discoveries from the last 100 years had made the existence of god more likely...... (the universe had a begining, the universe is FT, life is complex etc) these are all discoveries that make the existence of god more likely.
     
  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    although dna was possibly discovered over 150 years ago its significance was not discovered until the 1950. The discovery of that significance is what closed the god magic gap


    I would like you now to act on your own words, you made the several claims so please provide falsifiable evidencefor your claims.
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    We don't even know if the idea of the "cause" of the universe has any meaning, in a scientific sense.

    Since, according to the (speculative) singularity model, time itself would have started at the singularity, there would have been no "before" . Without any "before", it is hard to attach meaning to the idea of "cause".

    So you are trying to get me to answer a non-scientific question in terms of science. This, I cannot do, obviously.

    Personally, I am happy with the idea of a Creator God (...."born of the Father before time began" starts to sound interesting, doesn't it?;)) , but there is no scientific evidence for this: it's just an aesthetic idea.
     
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  5. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    4) What is that god thingy you keep talking about?
    OK, that is because I'm an Agnostic.

    I'm also an atheist as a consequence of my Agnosticism and as such my answer (in light of your clarification) would be #2.
    There is no reason to believe in a deos as
    1) it unnecessarily duplicates entities,
    2) there are alternative explanations with similar (lack of) evidence,
    3) a deos has no explanatory power and therefore
    4) no consequences.

    Having said that, there is also no reason to oppose deism. It is an absolutely harmless belief as, as stated above, it has no consequences. Deists can't and don't rest demands on their belief, typically don't proselytise and most are quick to agree to disagree (as, as stated above, it has no consequences).
     
  6. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    I cannot add anything to what Christine added earlier

    But that doesn't help; because I then want to know, "Who created god?"
    Don't you see, you are just adding another layer.
     
  7. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What kind of cause are you talking about? Four causes - Wikipedia

    By "explanation, We mean mechanism, like the sum of interactions between the spring, gears, escapements, &c of a Swiss watch. We're asking how, not who.


    Strawnman..... I dont reject the big bang.[/QUOTE]Very expansive of you. ;)
     
  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Is the cause of a present the guy who came up with the idea of a particular toy? The designer of the toy? The manufacturer of that toy? The distributer? The seller? the Father who bought it?
    Science is asking for a mechanism, not magic; not a magical agent.
     
  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What do they see as the function of a punishment? What is it supposed to achieve?
     
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I'm curious. What evidence for God do you see? Is it real evidence? Do others propose a different, natural explanation of your evidence?
     
  11. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Chauvinistic?
     
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    He's trying to reframe atheism as a response to his particular god and religion as if they're the gold standard of theism.
     
  13. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    But in the case of santa we know that Santa is not the cause of gifts

    In the case of God, "we dont know" if he is the cause of the universes

    So Santa and God are not comparable


    Agree?
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Hiw do you know?
     
  15. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    So there is no evidence nor good arguments for nor against God.... Does tjis represent your view?
     
  16. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    We can show empirically and conclusively that parents is a better explanation than Santa for gifts
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Parents were not in question, you stated

    You made thw claim to to paraphrase your own sentiment, please show me evidence
     
  18. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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  19. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    All I whant to know is in what category would you put God

    1 you know with high degree of certainly that god doesn't excist....... You would put god in the same category you would put Santa Clause, (this view requires a burden proof)

    2 you dont know ... You would put God in the same category you would put aliens.... Perhaps he exists perhaps he doesn't. We dont have sufficient evidenve to conclude ether way (this doesn't require burden proof)
     
  20. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    Certainly there are "natural explanations" for things like why water is most dense at 4 degrees but such explanations are always "convenient" and based on observation rather than experiment. The explanations would be just as glib if it were most dense at 0 degrees except there would be no life in the entire universe probably. That we can invent a means to quantify logic and so long as we keep the logic sound it always works is not evidence for "God" either, but it could be considered indicative. The fact that we are never able to predict the future and it is not noticed can be laid at the feet of numerous causations but it certainly proves reality is far more complex than the human brain for which our science lacks a working definition of its products and function.

    I am far more amazed at the vastness of human ignorance than our knowledge but this amazement pales in amplitude to the amazement that no one else ever seems to notice and all the vocabulary to express the awe and wonder has been usurped by religions and no one ever noticed this either. I find it remarkable that humans are infinitely flexible and have multiple modes of operation and many ways to adapt any mode to circumstances. We can pile up bodies of those who are different and find it no more unnatural than hunting for sport or slaughtering for sustenance.

    I believe there are natural explanations for everything but those explanations have nothing to do with modern science. Reality itself is digital and logical and this is why science and math work. This isn't to say that science has any answers but it has a great deal of knowledge and asks some of the right questions. There are no "laws of nature" and there is no "survival of the fittest". These are delusions generated by our assumptions and beliefs. But we still have no means to know if a "Creator" exists or not. We have no means and might never have means to design an experiment to show no creator exists or that that hypothesis is in error.

    In our and my own vast ignorance all I can do is speculate. I wonder at the beliefs that drive people to reject evidence and embrace beliefs though we all do it.

    It appears to me that Babel was real and we are still confused about it and most everything else and this is CAUSED by our language which brooks no ignorance and no gaps in our knowledge. We are mistaken about everything and are blind to it because we each see what wee believe and what we expect.
     
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