What "supporting traditional families" really means.

[Smoke]

I'd like to thank idea for starting the "thread for traditional families" in the LDS DIR.

Idea explains in the OP that the thread is "only for those who support traditional families." The reason I'm thanking her is that only rarely are people who "support traditional families" honest enough to say exactly what they mean, as idea does in post #3 of that thread:

This is a thread for those who consider SS [same sex] an abomination and wish to collect resources to help rid society and individuals of this degrading/demeaning practice. To those who believe that their bodies are a temple, and want to keep themselves pure from all unholy practices.

For those who suffer from this SS attraction, I feel sorry for you, I really do. We all have our trials in life, we all have things to overcome. I refuse to remain silent and enable people to wallow in their filth though. When you see others with problems that will cripple them in life conscientious people should do all they can to help teach and guide to a better way of life. If you see an alcoholic, no matter how much they like their booze, to condone their actions is to hurt them and everyone around them.
​

Of course, everybody knows that the whole movement to "support traditional families" has nothing whatever to do with actually supporting traditional families. It has to do with raw, ignorant bigotry. But it's refreshing to see that spelled out so clearly.

I really appreciate the honesty. I don't appreciate anything else about it, but it's nice to see an anti-gay crusader come out and say what she really means, instead of hiding behind the usual lies.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

There is no such thing as a "traditional family". There are many family traditions but I've never heard of a true "traditional family". Just some label a bunch of haters came up with to categorize those they disagree with.

 

[idea]

I've never been one for beating around the bush

Yes, thank you. Feel free to address any of the sites / comments that are posted on the linked thread here. The other thread, I just wanted a place of peace and quiet to organize thoughts.

This being Easter, I will not be around for a bit. Not that it matters, it is the same issues over and over again.

you are taking away my rights
no, you are taking away my rights (pastor cannot preach against homosexuality, church has to rent to GLTB couples, dating services have to provide for them, doctors have to impregnate them, school have to teach their doctrine, photographers have to photograph them, not to mension the medical bills everyone is supporting, boy scouts sued, adoption agencies shut down) so yes, everyone is being forced to do things they do not want to do.

What is moral / what is not moral

ability of people to vote their conscience

it has all been said before, it will all be said again, over and over again.

Have a wonderful Easter weekend everyone, may Jesus bless and keep you.

 

[Father Heathen]

you are taking away my rights
no, you are taking away my rights (pastor cannot preach against homosexuality,

Not true. Allowing racially mixed marriages never silenced racists, did it?

church has to rent to GLTB couples, dating services have to provide for them,

No, they don't. They're private businesses and institutions.

school have to teach their doctrine,

They don't have a "doctrine" to teach. Now you're just fabricating nonsense and making yourself look foolish. Well, more foolish.

doctors have to impregnate them, photographers have to photograph them, not to mension the medical bills everyone is supporting) so yes, everyone is being forced to do things they do not want to do.

One, it's their job. It would be like a vegetarian who decides to work at a burger joint and then starts whining about having to serve meat. Secondly, a lot of people often have to do things they don't like to do. Look at people who hate Mormonism (like evangelists who think it's a blasphemous falsehood, for example), don't you feel guilty when they have to deal with the likes of you? Or racists who have to perform the services that they're paid to do for racial minorities? Does your heart bleed for them as well?

It's people like you who are trying to trample the rights of others. If you don't like freedom, get the hell out of my country.

 

[tumbleweed41]

To the LDS, and many Christian and other Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is a sin.
This "sin" is equated with adultery(cheating on your spouse), fornication(sex outside marriage), haters of God (Antitheism), despiteful (Full of Malice), proud, boasters, inventors of evil things(Not sure about this one), and being disobedient to parents.(Romans 1:27, 29-31, 32, KJV)
Lets look at each "sin individually.
Adultery-Frowned upon in church, a reason for expulsion from a church and grounds for divorce. No longer considered "illegal", (with the exception of some outdated laws still in the books, but not enforced)
Fornication-see Adultery. Only real legal restrictions are age of consent, and mutual consent.
Antitheism-No legal restrictions.
Malice-Only illegal if acted upon another person to cause harm.
Prideful-No legal restrictions.
Boastful-No legal restrictions.
Inventors of Evil-Depending on the "evil" created.
Disobedient to parents-Depending on the level of disobedience.

None of the above mentioned "sins" are treated with as much passion and hostility as the supposed "sin" of homosexuality.
This shows that many in the LDS and Evangelical churches have a complete disregard for what their scriptures tell them. To choose for themselves what "sins" should be legislated by the state, and what should be kept within the church walls is pure hypocrisy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no, you are taking away my rights (pastor cannot preach against homosexuality,

Exactly what does your pastor have to say that he feels he isn't allowed to?

church has to rent to GLTB couples,

No, it doesn't. If it decides to rent out part of its space as a public accommodation, then in many places it isn't allowed to discriminate, just like any other business, but nobody forces churches to rent out space in this way.

dating services have to provide for them,

Same thing. If you provide a for-profit service to the public, the law in many places demands that you offer that service without discrimination. Just the same as a restaurant can't turn away black people just because they're black, a dating service can't turn away gay people just because they're gay.

doctors have to impregnate them,

If you're talking about the case I'm thinking of, then yes, if a clinic takes a lesbian patient's money in payment for in vitro fertilization, they're duty-bound to fulfil their end of the agreement and provide the service that they have agreed to provide.

Or do you think that people shouldn't be held to their word and to legal agreements?

school have to teach their doctrine,

Which school, and what doctrine? Please be specific.

photographers have to photograph them,

Again, if you freely decide to provide a service to the public, then the law often requires you to provide it without discrimination.

not to mension the medical bills everyone is supporting,

Assuming that you mean people in same-sex marriages putting their spouses on their health insurance policies, let me ask you this: what do you think has a larger impact on health insurance policy revenues and profitability?

- people putting their same-sex spouses under their family plan.
- greater numbers of children (on average) in LDS families.

boy scouts sued,

While (and speaking as a former Boy Scout myself) I find the BSA's approach to homosexuality to be shameful and contrary to some of the basic principles of Scouting, I really don't see what the Boy Scouts being sued has to do with same-sex marriage. Could you elaborate?

adoption agencies shut down)

If you want to be a government contractor, then you have to meet the government's requirements. There's nothing new in this, and there's absolutely no such thing as a right to a government contract to provide adoption services.

 

[Father Heathen]

To the LDS, and many Christian and other Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is a sin.
This "sin" is equated with adultery(cheating on your spouse), fornication(sex outside marriage), haters of God (Antitheism), despiteful (Full of Malice), proud, boasters, inventors of evil things(Not sure about this one), and being disobedient to parents.
Lets look at each "sin individually.
Adultery-Frowned upon in church, a reason for expulsion from a church and grounds for divorce. No longer considered "illegal", (with the exception of some outdated laws still in the books, but not enforced)
Fornication-see Adultery. Only real legal restrictions are age of consent, and mutual consent.
Antitheism-No legal restrictions.
Malice-Only illegal if acted upon another person to cause harm.
Prideful-No legal restrictions.
Boastful-No legal restrictions.
Inventors of Evil-Depending on the "evil" created.
Disobedient to parents-Depending on the level of disobedience.

None of the above mentioned "sins" are treated with as much passion and hostility as the supposed "sin" of homosexuality.
This shows that many in the LDS and Evangelical churches have a complete disregard for what their scriptures tell them. To choose for themselves what "sins" should be legislated by the state, and what should be kept within the church walls is pure hypocrisy.

They indeed have a habit of cherry picking what "sins" illicit outrage. Curiously enough you never see Christians picket Red Lobster (Leviticus 11:12) or Fashion Bug (Deuteronomy 22:11). Besides, should we really heed a book that instructs us on how to sell our own daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7)?

 

[Wandered Off]

...inventors of evil things(Not sure about this one)

This is primarily a prophetic reference to disco and its associated clothing fashions.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would think that recognizing Same Sex Marriages actually supports traditional families, despite the apparent fears of idea and some others.

Surely it is a good thing for traditional families - and for everyone, really - that couples who want to be together are allowed to do so in the light of the day.


Isn´t that right?

All this talk about repudiating a supposed "abomination" seems to be just so blind. And more than a little un-Christian, too. Jesus supposedly wanted people to judge others by their acts and character, not sexual inclinations. Are we supposed to understand that Christians welcome lepers but despise homosexuals just because?

 

[tumbleweed41]

This is primarily a prophetic reference to disco and its associated clothing fashions.

:run:

 

[eugenius]

Well there seems to be many many homosexuals in the Christian and Catholic churches and societies.

Last time I checked, it was a sin to rape young boys over and over again across the nation. With the millions or perhaps billions the church has had to pay out to cover the costs of lawsuits over the years, you might want to look within your own religious group first and solve that problem before pointing your finger elsewhere.

You sound like a 1950's racist if you replace gay with black. Again, I"m amazed how intolerant you religious folks are, especially when you preach about tolerance in every sermon. The times are a changing as Dylan said, too bad the bible cannot change with it.

 

[eugenius]

They indeed have a habit of cherry picking what "sins" illicit outrage. Curiously enough you never see Christians picket Red Lobster (Leviticus 11:12) or Fashion Bug (Deuteronomy 22:11). Besides, should we really heed a book that instructs us on how to sell our own daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7)?

I wish the church would for once focus on something that matters, like corruption, war etc.

Why aren't these groups screaming at the top of a mountain for the war to stop. Millions of innocent people are dead and dying from war of corruption and greed yet they support it. I suspect God would be incredibly upset that his followers are fighting the wrong battles.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Well there seems to be many many homosexuals in the Christian and Catholic churches and societies.

Last time I checked, it was a sin to rape young boys over and over again across the nation. With the millions or perhaps billions the church has had to pay out to cover the costs of lawsuits over the years, you might want to look within your own religious group first and solve that problem before pointing your finger elsewhere.

You may not be aware of this, but you are equating homosexuality with pedophilia. Homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia.

You sound like a 1950's racist if you replace gay with black. Again, I"m amazed how intolerant you religious folks are, especially when you preach about tolerance in every sermon. The times are a changing as Dylan said, too bad the bible cannot change with it.

To whom are you addressing this to?

 

[eugenius]

You may not be aware of this, but you are equating homosexuality with pedophilia. Homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia.



To whom are you addressing this to?

Perhaps you're right, although the fact that they are nearly always male would lead me to believe they are gay as well. Of course Pedophilia is one of the most heinous crimes that exists today and far more disturbing than being gay. Why wouldn't the Christians protest this? Have them all take lie detector tests and get them the heck out of the churches?

I'm addressing this to the OP of course.

 

[gnomon]

Sorry, I will re-clarify. This is a thread for those who consider SS an abomination and wish to collect resources to help rid society and individuals of this degrading/demeaning practice. To those who believe that their bodies are a temple, and want to keep themselves pure from all unholy practices.

For those who suffer from this SS attraction, I feel sorry for you, I really do. We all have our trials in life, we all have things to overcome. I refuse to remain silent and enable people to wallow in their filth though. When you see others with problems that will cripple them in life conscientious people should do all they can to help teach and guide to a better way of life. If you see an alcoholic, no matter how much they like their booze, to condone their actions is to hurt them and everyone around them.

Do you really think this is in line with the statements made by such individuals as Elder Oaks. A reading from his article, no matter how I disagree with it intellectually, still seems to paint a far more inoffensive approach to the discussion of homosexuality.

Reading James Fausts article on "Serving the Lord and Offending the Devil".

There is some widely accepted theory extant that homosexuality is inherited. How can this be? No scientific evidence demonstrates absolutely that this is so. Besides, if it were so, it would frustrate the whole plan of mortal happiness. Our designation as men or women began before this world was. In contrast to the socially accepted doctrine that homosexuality is inborn, a number of respectable authorities contend that homosexuality is not acquired by birth. The false belief of inborn homosexual orientation denies to repentant souls the opportunity to change and will ultimately lead to discouragement, disappointment, and despair.

Faust seems to justify a line of thought that "attacks", aka criticism's that would be directed at the Church are essentially attacks from Satan because he has taken the stance that since science has not absolutely proven an inherit nature to homosexuality then it must be diabolical. Not a very logical position and one that seems to reflect your point of view. I also note that Faust's article is over a decade old and is most likely not universally shared among the LDS.

What say you?

Respectfully.

edit: Tried to post this right when the infamous thread was closed. Wasn't going to let all that time go to waste.

edit again: And for your own sake do not thing I use these two individuals as the ultimate representatives of the LDS position on the issue. I only use them because they are predominant on the website under the question of homosexuality. Not being a member of the Church and from what I have read here I seriously doubt they hold an authoritative position and more of an influential position.

 

[darkendless]

I've never been one for beating around the bush

Yes, thank you. Feel free to address any of the sites / comments that are posted on the linked thread here. The other thread, I just wanted a place of peace and quiet to organize thoughts.

This being Easter, I will not be around for a bit. Not that it matters, it is the same issues over and over again.

you are taking away my rights
no, you are taking away my rights (pastor cannot preach against homosexuality, church has to rent to GLTB couples, dating services have to provide for them, doctors have to impregnate them, school have to teach their doctrine, photographers have to photograph them, not to mension the medical bills everyone is supporting, boy scouts sued, adoption agencies shut down) so yes, everyone is being forced to do things they do not want to do.

What is moral / what is not moral

ability of people to vote their conscience

it has all been said before, it will all be said again, over and over again.

Have a wonderful Easter weekend everyone, may Jesus bless and keep you.

Strange how you can whinge and whine about this.

I've said this before in a different part of the forum, because of YOUR religion, my band had to change its lyrics to be able to perform at the university. So YOUR people are taking my rights away, my right to free speech.

Preachers can and will preach against homosexuality. But then again, they do what they're told. They're sheep, preaching the same hatred over and over again. What makes these people even worse, it that they go out of their way to preach to the unconverted/marginal members of the community to spread their hatred further.

What right of yours specifically are we taking away? The right to be a bigot? The right to deny others basic rights? Please enlighten me because free speech doesn't cut it. How many times do people need to remind you that homosexual couples will never impact your life?

 

[Sahar]

I'd like to thank idea for starting the "thread for traditional families" in the LDS DIR.

Idea explains in the OP that the thread is "only for those who support traditional families." The reason I'm thanking her is that only rarely are people who "support traditional families" honest enough to say exactly what they mean

Rarely honest enough perhaps because their threads get closed (or deleted, God only knows) or they are attacked for uttering their opinions frankly...

 

[darkendless]

or they are attacked for uttering their opinions frankly...

I wonder why

 

[Seven]

you are taking away my rights
no, you are taking away my rights (pastor cannot preach against homosexuality, church has to rent to GLTB couples, dating services have to provide for them, doctors have to impregnate them, school have to teach their doctrine, photographers have to photograph them, not to mension the medical bills everyone is supporting, boy scouts sued, adoption agencies shut down) so yes, everyone is being forced to do things they do not want to do.

Are these things really that bad, sounds like you are just being forced to be tolerant.

What is moral / what is not moral

Feel free to answer that for yourself, I will not dictate morality to you - just extend the same courtesy to the rest of us.

ability of people to vote their conscience

My father feels the same way and I can't understand this position. How does viewing homosexuality as immoral obligate you to impose that opinion on others? Isn't it enough for you to just abstain yourself?

it has all been said before, it will all be said again, over and over again

. I hope so, any worthwhile change usually takes persistence.

Have a wonderful Easter weekend everyone, may Jesus bless and keep you.

Same to you Hope to hear from you when you return.

 

[Watchmen]

Strange how you can whinge and whine about this.

I've said this before in a different part of the forum, because of YOUR religion, my band had to change its lyrics to be able to perform at the university. So YOUR people are taking my rights away, my right to free speech.

Preachers can and will preach against homosexuality. But then again, they do what they're told. They're sheep, preaching the same hatred over and over again. What makes these people even worse, it that they go out of their way to preach to the unconverted/marginal members of the community to spread their hatred further.

What right of yours specifically are we taking away? The right to be a bigot? The right to deny others basic rights? Please enlighten me because free speech doesn't cut it. How many times do people need to remind you that homosexual couples will never impact your life?

You don't have a right to perform what-ever-you-want at a private university. You don't even have that right at a public U. If you don't like it, don't perform there.