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What proof does Inteligent Design offer?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Pah, Sep 27, 2004.

  1. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    This thread will confine itself to positive, peer reviewed, testable theories and comments regarding them

    Discussion anyone on the postive, scientific proofs of life's origin that come from the Bible?

    -pah-
     
  2. Raphael

    Raphael Member

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    Some of the chief principals and scientific proofs regarding the origin of life are intricately tied and founded on other proofs. For example beginning with "Prime Cause", then combining prime cause with "Intellectual Motion", and the Highbredization of the species due to genetic disposition connected to both "Divine Providence," and Predestination of the individual we arrive not just at the origin of life but of specific intended individuals. These philosophies are understood in the light of concepts tied to the immutable existance of the origin of motion, and of its Infinite Knowledge and Power. IE. Eternal, Omnipresence, and Omnipotence.
     
  3. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    We are not here to discuss philiosophy in this thread. This post is off-topic

    Sorry, a more appropiate forum would be World Philosophies in the dicussion section.

    -pah-
     
  4. kbc_1963

    kbc_1963 Active Member

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    high complexity
    order
    irreducible complexity

    all of which is not allowed to be considered by peer review so basicly there will be nothing to post here so this should be a short topic.
     
  5. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I see only two on the list but I see no scientific support for what I suppose is creationism or it's guise in Intelligent Design - peer reviewed or not.

    -pah-
     
  6. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    What proof does Inteligent Design offer


    Offer for what?

    Proof in regards to God's eixtence , creation, evolution, judgement etc or just proof of Inteligent design, could you be more specific.

    Proof of Intelligent design behind a specific object,be it animate or inanimate, are axiomatic in the processes involved surrounding that particular object in design .
    ie:
    1)What do you know about a watch?
    2) Does it actually exist,using your sensory perception, providing your reasoning and rationale mind has'nt usurped authority over your sensory perception,
    3)What are the ingredients and where are the ingredients derived from ( originate).
    4)Were the ingredients created specifically or are they of natural origin.
    5) What are the facts surrounding it's existence and operation, the steps and processes invoved to systematically assemble and initiate the operation.
    6) What are the confines in which this watch must operate

    Logically speaking,the intellectual mind can really only rationalize on the pertaining facts and truths within the confines of the design, not speculative assumptions and personal conceptual perspectives, leading usually to rhetoric
    ie: how do know that the rock in which the metal was extracted was located in texas or timbucktoo!, who cares! Not Relavent!!!!!!
    That line of thought might be ideal if and how you are able to modify and alter the oringinal design of the object and it's purpose after it's partially or fully designed,
    Although ,some things in this world are actually self-evident and exist outside the rational mind of man to comprehend and maybe even function naturally without man's assistance,possibly even originated before man was present.
    we still spend and are being spent on a labourious doing of nothing in the area of rational explanations and intellectual concepts as we analyze everything to death, thru thought.
    Otherwise it can become a mirage of combative thoughts,initiated by pride, thrusted out to prove nothing, but intellectual domination and stimulation.

    Inteligent design offers many conclusions, of course a designer, logic , resources,planning ,order,calculations, goals ,vision, ,objective/ pupose, restrictions, boundaries, limitations, all these held together by the self existent and immutable laws that the entire design is confined to exist in.

    Science, first and foremost ,is the process that involves gathering
    facts of information and arranging them in a manner in which to review, and examine, step by step.
    First look at science then history using a rational mind :then
    Look at evidence,
    Look at examples
    Look at experience
    Look at equations
    Look at existence

    How many things have you actually seen before your eyes, that evolved from one thing into another? I don't mean adaptation, mutation, natural process or progress, but what the theory of evolution is based on, which says," non living produces living organisms"
    ie: a can of coke ,did not just evolve and arrive, over millions of years with ,lettering, the tab, the tin, the shape, what are the chances of it just happening, the chances are there, if someone chooses to over rationalize and travel down that narrow intellectual road. Much like God, creation ,sin ,truth

    If the can of coke is used for a plant pot, it is still ,metal, drived from rock, from the earth, processed, created and formulated by an intelligent designer,COCA COLA, THE PURPOSE IS ALTERED, no longer a can of coke but a can of soil with a new purpose and design, still confined to restrictions and limitations or laws within and outside it's original purpose.
    How much more the intelligent design and purpose behind man.
    We were created to worship, obey and submit to our creator.
    We are relentlessly endeavoring to pursue alternate purposes for ourselves, regardless of the consequences of operating outside the perimeters of our boundaries, be it morally , physically, spiritually and intellectually,

    Man has determined to disprove God, I believe, to justify operating outside the moral (law) confines of a Moralistic, righteous, merciful,gracious and purposful Inteligent Designer who has set these standards in all of us and will judge us accordingly, whether we agree or not.

    The bible declares that, Rom1 " just from what is created, man will be without excuse on judgement day, for what may be known of God has been maifested in us he has shown himself to us," throught the obvious, nature and Intelligent Design
     
  7. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    You couldn`t be more wrong.
     
  8. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Sorry Roli, I see no answer to the question which is "Discussion anyone on the postive, scientific proofs of life's origin that come from the Bible?"

    The question shows it difficulty by being dormant fo so long.

    -pah-
     
  9. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Roli -

    I mean no disrespect, but I got absolutely nothing from your post. That is to say, I was hoping that someone on the Theist side of the aisle would respond with something along the lines of:
    The following empirical evidence shows the validity of Intelligent Design -
    (and then you would list as many pieces of evidence that you could find). If you believe that no empirical evidence is needed, but that logic and reason can lead one to conclude that Intelligent Design is a valid viewpoint, please feel free to take that line of thought. I don't mean to speak for Pah - but I think he would welcome an argument on that front as well.

    I read your post and the only thing I got out of it was the usual argument that Intelligent Design is beyond the reasoning of man, and by the way, don't question it - if you do, you'll go to Hell.
    If I missed some of the empirical evidence that Pah seems to be asking for, please forgive me - I just didn't see it.

    Thanks,
    TVOR
     
  10. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    so in short your answer is no... you have no real proof other than "this is what I believe."

    Which is fine... I also have deeply held spiritual beliefs that I can not prove... but then I don't try to make them into 'science'.

    wa:do
     
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  12. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Sounds to me like an unsupported bald assumption to say it is axiomatic and to say it "would be an insult to your rational mind," sounds much like a cope-out.

    The rest of your post if off-topic and I say that as a member and the one who originated the thread not as a moderator.

    -pah-
     
  13. chlotilde

    chlotilde Madame Curie

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    I don't think I understand your question then.
    Are you asking for proof that intelligent design is a method? Well, this is how we perform genetic modifications in plants and animals, we "design" it into new DNA. Whether you want to call it intelligent (i.e. a smart thing to do) or not seems more like opinion to me.

    Or are you asking if genetic evolution occured as a result of design or random chance? This is a philosophical discussion in science.
     
  14. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Proofs go to the science and not the philiospohy of science which is opinion. I'm after the scientific proofs of Inteligent Design.

    -pah-
     
  15. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Roli -

    Thanks for the reply, I understand your position more clearly now. However, to take observations of phenomena that surround us in life and make the claim that "these things exist in the state that they do" as an argument for Intelligent Design is begging the question. You are using the scientific explanations (developed by man to explain his world) to make the argument that they must therefore be of Intelligent Design. The fact that water seeks its own level does not make it so by Intelligent Design. It simply means that man has observed water acting in this manner over time. You cannot use the fact that a given phenomena exists as an argument that it must therefore be by Intelligent Design. If you want to make that argument, you need to show how it must be by Intelligent Design and not the result of random chance.

    As Painted Wolf said - these are your beliefs, but that does not make them proof in the scientific sense.

    Thanks,
    TVOR
     
  16. chlotilde

    chlotilde Madame Curie

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    You evaded my question. Design of what?
    You seem to think your question is not philosophical? Intelligent design is a hypothesis.

    As far as I know, evolution has not ended. It is unethical in the scientific method to draw conclusions before an experiment is over. (sorry, just playing by the rules)..Genetic evolution by Intelligent design or random chance are hypotheses. Hypotheses fall to philosophy, theories fall to scientific proof.
     
  17. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You're kidding - right? You don't know what Inteligent Design (with capital's) is?

    It can be but not with the restrictions I placed in the OP.

    But you know enough to think there is a hypothesis.

    True - but Inteligent Design is over. Give me the science of Intelligent Design. Or do you think the creator is still creating? But that is another topic. Forget I said it.


    There is mounting evidence for science and none for Intelligent Design.


    No, Evoltion is a theory. Intelligent Design has not reached the level of science in forming a scientific theory as shown in this thread by the lack of any scientific argument for Intelligent Design

    There is no science in Philosophy although there are rules in some sub-disciplines. Rules do not a science make.

    Now if you can not present scientific evidence for Intelligent Design, I feel you are wasting our time in this thread.

    -pah-
     
  18. chlotilde

    chlotilde Madame Curie

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    Ahhh, now I see what your asking! :)
    You are referring to intelligent design as pertains to creationism, not as it refers to evolution theory. No wonder I was confused by your point.

    Sorry, I can't help you here then.
    I am not a creationist. I happen to believe in evolution.
    Now, I suppose I could try to debate for the fun of it. But I don't like to debate just for the fun of it (I'd rather learn or teach something...but I'm off on a tangent).
     
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  19. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    Please, before I compile my resources and reasearch in hopes of specifically answering your question, that you so adamantly pursue, may you be specific and clear on what it is your asking for.
    .
    1) Proof in creation, a God,
    2) Scientific proof
    3) Anthropological Proof
    4) Biological, Historical,Geographical " "
    or just proof of an intelligent designer

    I'm sorry if you think I have been avasive. I actually love to go head first into these areas, but my question to you is ,what actual proof, or for that matter, what amount of proof do you actually think it will take that will lead you to possibly believe and experience an Intelligent Designer does exist.
    Are you even looking to find an Intelligent Designer or just an opportunity to voice, debate and disprove such issues

    Do you seek for proof Of Intelligent Design behind everything you set your sensory perception to, such as cars, paintings,buildings, the computer you use, or is there not enough emperical proof for you that there was intelligence , order ,purpose etc., behind the actual existence of these things.

    You look at the building ,you know there is a builder,very simple illustration ,and not intended to insult your intelligence, but how deep can we go with this observation is the real question.
    Emperical evidence is defined as" based on experience and observation"

    Although Faith has appeared "Taboo" (quoted as unrational),to many
    Philosophically Agnostic minds that I have come in contact with, not to stero -type you, but, you and I and everyone on this site and throughout the whole world operate daily and actually function more in the realm of faith ( strong belief in something without proof) then anythingelse. But to admit that may put into a

    Why would you think God would expect anything less from His creation, other then something we already operate in"FAITH" to experience His creative existence and attributes.
    It will not be through man's ingenuity,wisdom, logic and understanding , that we see God but, He says "without faith it is impossible to please Him, for He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him , for you will find Him if you seek him with all your heart"
    I have more evidence if anyone is interested, this is general ,be specific of what proof you look for.
    Examples of Proof (Brief)
    eg:1) Gen 3:15 reveals A female actually possesses a seed for childbearing, but this was not common knowledge until a few centuries ago, it was believed the male was the the only seed carrier and the woman was an incubator of sorts.
    eg:2)
    1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

    2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

    3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

    4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

    5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

    6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

    8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

    9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

    10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

    11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

    12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

    14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

    15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
     
  20. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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