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What path to choose?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    What Path to choose?

    One can choose to enter the narrow way/path to life (Matthew 19:17) & (Matthew 7:14) which entails keeping the Commandments, dying to oneself, and being born again John 3:3, or they can accept the “broad””way” to “destruction”, which the “many” choose, and follow the false prophet’s message (1 Thessalonians 4:14) of believe my message and you surely shall not die (Genesis 3:4) & (1 Thessalonians 4:17). “Everyone shall die for their own iniquities” (Jeremiah 31:30). Paul’s message (1 Corinthians 15:52-53) and the message of the serpent is that you surely shall not die. Yeshua’s message is if you die, you shall surely live. (John 11:25)

    New American Standard Bible John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."


    New American Standard Bible 1 Thessalonians 4:14
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


    New American Standard Bible John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies,

    New American Standard Bible 1 Thessalonians 4:17
    Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Corr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
    #1 2ndpillar, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  2. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    Young's Literal Translation
    "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;" Jn 3:3
    ἄνωθεν anōthen 509 from above
     
  3. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Paul is very clear that we all shall die. He states it very clearly in Romans. He states we are all sinners, and the wage of sin is death.
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    You can also narrow the way so much even you can't get in. I get the point of the verse, but I'm not much of a fan. It's not that I disagree that we need some kind of spiritual discipline. It's just that the analogy has problems, in my view.
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I've always felt believing in Jesus meant following the path he set forth which few if any are capable of.

    Giving lip service to some vague idea of faith in Jesus isn't going to get you anywhere. Faith is not a passive act.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hmm. I see it more like these:

    [​IMG]

    "I'm happy to embarked upon Truth that I've no reason to share because they've not a reason to steal." ~Carlita

    "I find it unproductive to share my Truth to those who've not asked."
    ~Carlita

    "I wanted to scream to the world that I have the Truth to life's problems; but then, reality sunk in: that this is my Truth and they have their own." ~Carlita

    :leafwind:
     
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  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, maybe I should have posted the full content of Paul's teachings with respect to what his followers called the "rapture", whereas they feel they will not die, but in a twinkling of and eye, "put on the imperishable". As Paul is "all things to all men" and true to none, I can see where you could get confused in the morass of his teachings. As for sinning, Paul clearly states in Romans 7:25 that he revels in "serving" the "law of sin" with "his flesh", and "thanks" "God" for the privilege.

    New American Standard Bible 1 Thessalonians 4:17
    Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Corr 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
    #7 2ndpillar, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  8. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    The narrow path obviously.
    But the narrow path is the easiest path to find, yet few find it.
    Jesus gave all the answers, yet so few can see it.
    The big question for me is: why???
    Especially in the Christian churches, you see people not following it. Why???
    How did so many become so deceived?

    How to find the path?
    Try Matthew 22:34-40.
    And Matthew 25:32-40.
    Some strong clues here.
     
  9. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    One issue before we begin. What you have consistently done is rip verses from their overall context. Taking one or two verses out of the larger context really distorts what is being said. Seeing that Paul often has an interesting rhetoric, one in which he builds up an argument only to later flip it on its head, you really can't take what he says out of context.

    1 Thessalonians is a great example of this. What Paul is teaching is the general resurrection. It's a common Jewish idea, one that the Gospel writers also proposed. The dead will be resurrected. That is his first claim. They will be resurrected as Jesus was resurrected. In fact, in verse 15, Paul is saying that this teaching comes from Jesus. As in, Jesus taught the same thing. What Paul is doing is correcting the Thessalonians.

    In verse 17, what Paul is still talking about is the general resurrection. The human body dies, but something continues on, some transformed body or being. We see that even more in Corinthians. The belief, which Paul states, and was deeply tied to the Jewish idea of resurrection, is that this fleshly body will die, but we will be transformed as Jesus was transformed, and ascend into heaven. And as Paul states, this is the same idea that Jesus subscribed to.

    I also find it telling that you didn't quote Romans 7:25 here. Paul is just stating a common Jewish idea, or Christian idea. "So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin."

    The Dead Sea Scrolls states largely the same thing, that the dominion of sin is the flesh. The flesh is the "evil impulse" that prevents humans from following God's law. But what Paul really is doing here is speaking hypothetically. If you read Chapter 8, he really goes into that, but also in chapter 6 (so as we see, there is a large argument that is being formulated here), that those who are baptized in Christ are no longer slaves to sin.

    The argument is that we can rid ourselves of our fleshly natures, which is sinful, and instead, live by the requirements of the just Law, and thus live according to the Spirit of God. Instead of focusing on what the flesh wants, Paul is arguing that we can focus on what God wants, and set our minds on that.

    And here again, we see Paul speaking of death. As in, the key point is that the human body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of God, which dwells in us, is alive. His summary for this section is that if we live by the flesh, all we will find is death. But, if we are led by God, and follow the Spirit of God, our bodies will die, but we will live.

    As we see then, the problem is that you're taking verses out of context without understanding the larger context; the larger argument that is being formed. What Paul is teaching here is a Jewish idea, and it is by no way a "broad" path. It is narrow. Really, it is about what you said Jesus taught.
     
  10. allfoak

    allfoak Alchemist

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    Perfection is the goal.
    The path to getting there is as diverse as life itself.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The path to perfection is quite straight forward, and was precisely laid out by Yeshua in Matthew 19:21. And as you can tell by opening your eyes every day, very few chose to become “perfect”.

    Matthew 19:21,” If you wish to be complete/perfect, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You seem to multiply words yet only sin is the result. Proverbs 10:19. Sinners are sons of the devil (1 John 3:8). The first words of the gospel of Yeshua is “repent”, that means to turn from sin. The Spirit of God does not live in the heart of a sinner. That is the domain of the devil and his demons. One has to take on a new wine skin to hold the Spirit of God, and that wine skin is built of the bread of life, without the leaven of the Pharisees. As for who will have a new heart and a new Spirit, that will be the “house of Judah”/”stick of Judah” and the “house of Israel”, “stick of Israel” (Jeremiah 31:31-33) & (Ezekiel 15-28). I will not quote the whole verse because of the space required, but I will rely on you to click on the links.

    As for the resurrection, the Jewish Sadducees see it quite differently from your point of view. And as far as Paul goes, he thanks God, that he serves the “law of sin”. If you are not familiar with Romans 7:25, I can quote the whole script at the bottom of the page, which you seemed to have failed to do. Saying one thing and doing another is called hypocrisy, the one thing that Yeshua particularly warned against was, “beware of the leaven of the Pharisees”. As for Paul and his minions, they cannot not sin, for they have an old wine skin, and because of the leaven, are unable to produce a new wine skin. As for you saying that there is no “rapture”, while that may be true, there will be many “Christians” that will vehemently disagree with you. My point is that what he says is not true. As far as the "Dead Sea Scrolls", it has a reference to the "liar" who they would not rest until they killed him. Sounds a lot like when Paul had to Hail to Caesar, to get him out of Jerusalem.

    New American Standard Bible Romans 7:25
    Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.



    New American Standard Bible Proverbs 10:19
    When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
     
  13. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    So the Spirit of God lives in no one then. We are all sinners. So since the heart of the sinner is the domain of the devil and his demons, then that is true for everyone.

    Ironically, the argument that one has to put on a new wine skin to hold the Spirit of God is what Paul was saying as well. That was basically his argument in Romans.
    I'm not going through Romans 7:25 again. I delved into his argument already. To take one verse out of an argument that stretches multiple chapters, and contains a great deal of rhetoric, simply is ridiculous. It seems to me that you didn't even bother to read my argument though, as you took so much of it out of context, to the point I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

    If you want to continue this debate, I'd suggest you actually read my previous post. As it stands, my response here would basically just be repeating myself.
     
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The “Spirit of God” lives in those reborn in the Word of God, and he cannot sin (1 John 3:9). As for “we are all sinners” , I would suggest you find out what sin is, repent, and "sin no more, lest something worse befalls you". (John 5:14) Oops, the “awesome day of the LORD” is coming and there really is no hiding from what is in store. The problem with Paul, is that his hypocrisy, is the leaven, and with leaven added to the “good seed”, you cannot grow a new wine skin.

    New American Standard Bible (John 5:14)
    Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

    New American Standard Bible (1 John 3:9)
    No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


    King James Bible 1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
  15. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I would suggest you read the Letter to the Romans. Or just go back and reread my response where I summarize the position Paul is making, as you haven't actually addressed it. Paul also speaks of the Spirit of God who lives in those reborn. And that once that happens, you aren't bound to the flesh, to sin. Basically, the position you're saying John took is the same position we see in the Letter to the Romans. Your argument in regards to Paul only works if you don't read what Paul has to say.
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You obviously haven’t read what I have had to say. I am saying that Paul is the quintessential hypocrite. What he says is not in line with what he does, and Romans 7:25 is the perfect example. As for what Yeshua says about the leaven/hyprocrisy of the Pharisees, is that one is to “beware” of it. (Luke 12:1) You apparently don’t care to heed the “testimony” of Yeshua (Matthew 7:24-27), which will apparently lead to the “fall” of your “house”. The road of double-mindedness, leads to madness. (Ecclesiastes 9:3) And since the “Christian” Pope, and the “Christian” Bill Clinton are still bound to the flesh, when they were both exposed, they said they didn’t do it, it was the sin within them that did it, quoting from the hypocrite of hypocrites, Paul, the author of (Romans 7:17)

    New American Standard Bible Romans 7:17
    So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    New American Standard Bible Ecclesiastes 9:3
    This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

    New American Standard Bible Romans 7:25
    Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    Luke 12:1
    In the meantime, a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling one another. Jesus began to speak first to His disciples: "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

    New American Standard Bible Matthew 16:11
    "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12Then they understood that He was not telling them to beware of the yeast used in bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.…

    Matthew 16:6
    "Watch out!" Jesus told them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
     
  17. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I've read what you've said. I'm saying that you're wrong, and you've read Paul incorrectly. And you're responses have largely just been cherry picking various verses and stringing them together without addressing my points.
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Your points are based on a quintessential liar, Paul. You can go ahead and build your tower of Pisa, but it will "fall" eventually (Matthew 7:27).
     
  19. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Can you prove Paul was a liar? If you're going to reject Paul outright, you have to prove he's a liar. The burden of proof is on youA
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4:17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    The is above quote is a lie. Jeremiah 31:30, "everyone will die for his own iniquity". Paul died, and the other "we", died, and you will die. The only ones who will not die, are the saints, who already died once, and who are to be raised from the dead.(Revelation 20:4). The burden of proof is on you. Please don't use quotes from the false prophet, or his wayward followers, unknown authors, or Paul's buds. They would be among "those who dwell on the earth", and are "deceived" (Rev 13:14). What can not be broken is "Scripture". (John 10:35) On the other hand, the "false prophet" is dead, and his "unclean" "demon spirit" is gathering the kings of the whole world to Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:13-19).


    New American Standard Bible John 10:35
    "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
     
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