What Orthodox Judaism Really Believes

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are right, and I am sorry for that. I should be more respectful, and will indeed try to be from now on. It is just, that the way he/she was talking about these leaders really irritated me.

That was a rather impressive (and Jewish) post. Thanks.

 

[Harmonious]

I guess I'm still unclear as to why the reference effected the change. Was it simply because the reference asserted Hell or was it because the reference powerfully explicated a justification for it?

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

 

[Harmonious]

You are right, and I am sorry for that. I should be more respectful, and will indeed try to be from now on. It is just, that the way he/she was talking about these leaders really irritated me.

Good deal. You posted this before I finished my rather long post that took me a bit to write from start to finish.

We've had problems with this before.

I'm glad you recognized what you were doing and will work to correct yourself.

 

[Harmonious]

But I was under the impression that I was indeed talking to Orthodox Jews here... Am i not in the Orthodox section? It is misleading if the people in this forum are not Orthodox.

The people asking questions may NOT be Orthodox, or even Jewish.

While some of the people here ARE Orthodox Jews, there is a way of explaining things to people who are asking questions that is the right way, and there is a wrong way.

Remember the teachers of Mussar. Do not do a disservice to yourself or the concept of Orthodox Jewry by being condescending, no matter WHAT you are explaining.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

That was a wonderful answer. We're fortunate having you around. :yes:

 

[dantech]

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

It is true that what a person leaves behind is what will make this person go higher in Hashem's eyes, or lower... If a man dies and leaves behind wonderful children who were raised in the way of the Torah. These kids accomplish good deeds and teach more people to do so, then it creates a chain reaction. It is just like a pyramid effect. Any possible positive that will come somehow from a man even 1000 years after his death, will help him gain reward in the Olam Haemet. Where is the opposite is true as well. Anything negative will reduce his prize as well.

hope this was helpful.

 

[Harmonious]

That was a wonderful answer. We're fortunate having you around. :yes:

Thank you.

 

[Harmonious]

It is true that what a person leaves behind is what will make this person go higher in Hashem's eyes, or lower... If a man dies and leaves behind wonderful children who were raised in the way of the Torah. These kids accomplish good deeds and teach more people to do so, then it creates a chain reaction. It is just like a pyramid effect. Any possible positive that will come somehow from a man even 1000 years after his death, will help him gain reward in the Olam Haemet. Where is the opposite is true as well. Anything negative will reduce his prize as well.

hope this was helpful.

Thank you. It was good to learn this bit over again, and you explained it very effectively.

But is this the direct lesson of that story in Gittin 57a? That is the source of my question.

There are many lessons that could be learned from this bit of Agadita.

 

[dantech]

Thank you. It was good to learn this bit over again, and you explained it very effectively.

But is this the direct lesson of that story in Gittin 57a? That is the source of my question.

There are many lessons that could be learned from this bit of Agadita.

I am not 100% sure it is from Gittin but this is very general knowledge. It comes up quite a few times as to how some people have raised significantly in the Olam Haemet simply from having their children say the Kaddish for them. Or reading a Haftarah in their names (Leilouy Nishmat)

For those who dont know, "Leilouy Nishmat", in Hebrew, means "To raise the Soul of" When you do a prayer or a good deed by saying "Leilouy Nishmat Name of Deceased" you are doing this good deed and asking Hashem to give the merits to this person. A person could no longer do good or bad deeds after his death. However, he could have millions of people doing them in his name. A good example would be All the Lubavitchers who do everything in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. This means this Rebbe is getting alot of credit for stuff he is no longer doing himself.

Another good example would be those Nazis who still hate and commit crimes in the name of Hitler. Hitler is the cause of these hateful acts and his soul is being punished for them constantly.

 

[Harmonious]

I am not 100% sure it is from Gittin but this is very general knowledge. It comes up quite a few times as to how some people have raised significantly in the Olam Haemet simply from having their children say the Kaddish for them. Or reading a Haftarah in their names (Leilouy Nishmat)

For those who dont know, "Leilouy Nishmat", in Hebrew, means "To raise the Soul of" When you do a prayer or a good deed by saying "Leilouy Nishmat Name of Deceased" you are doing this good deed and asking Hashem to give the merits to this person. A person could no longer do good or bad deeds after his death. However, he could have millions of people doing them in his name. A good example would be All the Lubavitchers who do everything in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. This means this Rebbe is getting alot of credit for stuff he is no longer doing himself.

Another good example would be those Nazis who still hate and commit crimes in the name of Hitler. Hitler is the cause of these hateful acts and his soul is being punished for them constantly.

We are having a failure to communicate.

I understand the concept. Completely. I've made mention of it, if not in this thread, then in other places.

My point in bringing it up so in depth in the post that you first quoted of mine to Jay was to explain my reaction to the Agadita in Gittin, particularly the acceptance of the possibility of the concept of Hell, or at least eternal torment. There are many lessons to be learned from that piece of Agadita, and I was listing the possibilities of what they were, and the one you are trying to explain to me was only one of the many I was offering.

I thank you for trying to explain the concept. But in this circumstance, further instruction is not necessary. I understand the concept. I was making a different point.

 

[dantech]

We are having a failure to communicate.

I understand the concept. Completely. I've made mention of it, if not in this thread, then in other places.

My point in bringing it up so in depth in the post that you first quoted of mine to Jay was to explain my reaction to the Agadita in Gittin, particularly the acceptance of the possibility of the concept of Hell, or at least eternal torment. There are many lessons to be learned from that piece of Agadita, and I was listing the possibilities of what they were, and the one you are trying to explain to me was only one of the many I was offering.

I thank you for trying to explain the concept. But in this circumstance, further instruction is not necessary. I understand the concept. I was making a different point.

Oh, OK. I understand what you are looking for now. I will look it up, but I don't think it is in Gittin 57A. Will definitely look it up soon.

 

[Harmonious]

Oh, OK. I understand what you are looking for now. I will look it up, but I don't think it is in Gittin 57A. Will definitely look it up soon.

That will be interesting.

I had reason to mention this story in a different thread, and if you were curious, this is the post:

[FONT=&quot]
In context... The story was about when Onkelos was converted (dude - he was MENTIONED by name, including that he was the son of Hadrian), he asked in the dream or vision various leaders who he met in the world to come whether or not he should convert. Nebuchadnezzar, who was eternally boiling in water, said to stay far away from the Jews. He tried to overpower the Jews and destroyed the Temple, and look what happened to him.

He came and saw Titus, who was being eternally boiled in urine, and asked the same question. He mentioned what he had done, destroying the Second Temple, and that he should stay away from the Jews.

By the time of Hadrian, it was at least a couple hundred years after the destruction of the Temple, so we can safely say that Jesus was dead. (Or, if you must... At least he was killed once, never mind the resurrection.) So, when Onkelos asked Jesus about whether or not he should convert to Judaism, (and yes, he was being boiled eternally in feces,) he said quite desperately that he absolutely should convert to Judaism, as the Jews had the real truth. He tried to cut corners with it, and he regretted it. If he would have done right by the Jews and taught Torah properly... Yes, he highly recommended that Onkelos convert to Judaism.

...

Since the story probably happened once the spread of Christianity was a bit more far flung, and there was cause for Jews to resent what Christians were doing to Jews in Jesus' name, the story in Agadita represented more of that.
[/FONT]

When I tried to find the source online, I was often directed to Gittin 57a.

If it is elsewhere, I would appreciate knowing where it is. I would also like to know that all of my details were correct. Those were the ones I remembered on the fly.

 

[Harmonious]

Forgive my tongue in cheek in that post - the person I responded to worked hard to get under my skin, and my ire was up.

 

[Harmonious]

It seems to be Gittin 56b-57a.

 

[dantech]

It seems to be Gittin 56b-57a.

In fact, you are right. I was remembering a different story. But I see exactly what you are talking about in my Gemara.

I was able to find a pretty accurate translation online. I will copy what i was able to find:

come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_57.html --->not allowed to post links yet.
That link is a pretty accurate translation of Gittin 57.

It seems you've mistaken on a few small details. Instead of Nebuchadnezzar, it was Balaam. Instead of boiling water, it was boiling Semen. (BTW it is said the Balaam might be referring to Jesus.). And the third that he raised were actually the "sinners of Israel". There are more details you could read in the link i sent you.

 

[Harmonious]

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for.

 

[dantech]

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for.

Yeah i thought so. I remember reading this YEARS ago. But I think i wasn't mature enough back then to really understand it. But now that i read back on it, it really is very deep and insightful.

 

[Rakhel]

ignore the blue highlight. I do
Babylonian Talmud: Gittin 56

 

[Harmonious]

ignore the blue highlight. I do
Babylonian Talmud: Gittin 56

Thank you.

 

[Flankerl]

This sentence right here shows just how little you know of how difficult it is for us to pray appropriately. Asking for the merits of our Rabbis to help our prayer get through is not a weakness as you make it seem, it is the opposite. It is adding power to your words.

If it sounds like catholicism, smells like catholicism and looks like catholicism...
Is that offensive? I sure hope so because they say the exact same thing about their "saints".

Why would you need the merit of a dead Rabbi to get through to Hashem? The Rabbi is dead and cant help you. He is not a transponder or radio station.
Iam sorry but thats just absurd.

This is absurd! Obviously he was just a human being. But you make him seem like a simple little farmer. Moshe Rabeinu was the leader of all generations. Up to this day there hasn't been a man that has achieved half of what he has achieved. If it wasn't for Moshe Rabeinu "negotiating" with Hashem, we would not have been here today. So if you ever do have the possibility of having your prayers be routed by him, take it! and don't say things like that. Do you realize Moshe Rabeinu was actually burried by G-D himself? This is because no man had the power to send such a pure being back to G-D... underestimating or disrespecting him in any way is an abomination.

At the end of the day he was the tool of Hashem. Without Hashem he would have been a sheppard for the rest of his life.

Is that disrespecting him? No because its the truth. Hashem was the source of the wonders not Moshe.
In no way is that disrespecting what he did.

You are 100% right that this is a place to worship Hashem and only Hashem. However, you don't realize that in almost all our prayers we mention our sages, ancestors or Rabbis. In the Amida, we mention Abraham, Isaac, and yaacov.

When the Rabbi blesses someone after an aliya to the sefer torah, he mentions these names as well, and some Rabbis mention other Rabbis (In the name of Rabbi Akiva, Of Rebbi Meir Baal HaNess, etc...)
This does not mean we worship these people in any way. All it means is we are greatfull of all the teachings that they passed on to us. and we realize how big their Neshamot are and how much effort they have put in their lives to serve Hashem, so please help my prayers get accepted... This is all we are doing by thinking of these people while praying.

Abraham, Isaac and Yakov did more for Israel than all Rabbis of all times combined. Its just something completely different to mention them than a Rabbi.
Though some people dont like to hear that their beloved Rabbi might not be the incarnation of Aaron and that at the end of the day he still sits on the toilet like any other jew. Though obviously Aaron also had to... well exit some stuff.

And no I dont need someone elso to beg Hashem for some attention. Why would I? Am I not important enough?

The Lubavitcher Rebbe has and still is bringing back thousands of Jews a day, in all the places you would think had been completely rid of Jews. Thanks to his doing, we find these valuable neshamot and bring them back to the right path every day. Your words are very insulting to many and I am trying to figure out if you are truely an orthodox Jew. Because any Orthodox Jew with respect to his heritage wouldn't speak like you do.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe was not the moshiach. He is dead and will stay dead like any good human being.

End of discussion. This has nothing to do with what he teached.
But if he thought of himself being the moshiach or even taught his followers the same he was an apostate or heretic. Its as simple as that.

There is no but about this kind of subject.

We are not talking about dirty wounds. They mention actual "invisible to the human eye, dangerous creatures"

Yeah and so did the indians and romans. Though the romans didnt really care about them. But the indians even gave them names. Around the same time Ezra returned to Israel.

Then go read it...

How about a page number? Or name of the chapter. Because iam so not going to read through all possible books just to find a small chapter.
After all iam still in university and got to read other stuff too.