What motivates atheists (and/or materialists) to deny the will?

[atanu]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

 

[Koldo]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

Since you have said anyone can participate...

I don't understand your question because I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that atheists deny their own will. It seems self-evident to me that atheists don't deny their own will.

Besides, I was raised to think that the spirit is superior to the mind and that the mind is superior to the body. But I can tell you that one of my biggest realizations was that none of them is superior per se.

 

[Nakosis]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

(I was Hindu, well I followed a Hindu Guru) To me, the soul is the subconscious mind. In many ways it is superior to the conscious mind. It can think quicker, react quicker. Remembers everything. Consciously, we lose focus, are easily distracted. Tend to rationalize our feelings.

The advantage of the conscious mind is that it can be rational and logical. We can use this to govern the subconscious mind. Teach it to not make knee-jerk relations. We can train it, like playing the piano, or public speaking, solving problems, then let it take over it can do everything faster, more accurately than we could consciously.

So denying my will? Soul/subconscious mind...

We shouldn't deny it though it is a struggle sometimes to train it. It's better, IMO to get the intellect and soul to work together. Each have their advantages and if we can understand that, get them to work together in harmony, we can do some pretty amazing things. The problems happen when one tries to overpower the other.

 

[atanu]

Since you have said anyone can participate...

I don't understand your question because I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that atheists deny their own will. It seems self-evident to me that atheists don't deny their own will.

Besides, I was raised to think that the spirit is superior to the mind and that the mind is superior to the body. But I can tell you that one of my biggest realizations was that none of them is superior per se.

In your last sentence you seem to have denied that ‘jivatma’ is superior to intellect. But you have not explained or justified your statement.

...

 

[atanu]

(I was Hindu, well I followed a Hindu Guru) To me, the soul is the subconscious mind. In many ways it is superior to the conscious mind. It can think quicker, react quicker. Remembers everything. Consciously, we lose focus, are easily distracted. Tend to rationalize our feelings.

The advantage of the conscious mind is that it can be rational and logical. We can use this to govern the subconscious mind. Teach it to not make knee-jerk relations. We can train it, like playing the piano, or public speaking, solving problems, then let it take over it can do everything faster, more accurately than we could consciously.

So denying my will? Soul/subconscious mind...

We shouldn't deny it though it is a struggle sometimes to train it. It's better, IMO to get the intellect and soul to work together. Each have their advantages and if we can understand that, get them to work together in harmony, we can do some pretty amazing things. The problems happen when one tries to overpower the other.

Well Nakosis. I see a fundamental difference in understanding in the way you have assigned the subconscious and the conscious respectively to Jivatma (soul) and intellect respectively.

In fact most of our lust stories are hidden in the subconscious that propel our intellect and actions.

The call here is to employ the superior power of jivatma (soul) to rein in the lust etc.

...

 

[Martin]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

Sorry, I don't understand the question. In what sense do atheists/materialists deny their own will?
And what does this have to do with the 'Gita passage in the OP?

 

[George-ananda]

What motivates atheists (and/or materialists) to deny the will?

I am not a material/atheist myself but I don't think they deny the will so much as seeing it as just the product of materialistic brain activity.

 

[Nakosis]

Well Nakosis. I see a fundamental difference in understanding in the way you have assigned the subconscious and the conscious respectively to Jivatma (soul) and intellect respectively.

In fact most of our lust stories are hidden in the subconscious that propel our intellect and actions.

The call here is to employ the superior power of jivatma (soul) to rein in the lust etc.

...

• PARAMĀTMĀ is the Supreme Principle, whatever we call it: God, Supreme Self, Divine Self, Love, Truth or Reality.
• ĀTMĀ may be described as God’s ray of light, which exists as the “light of life” in every living being. It is part of PARAMĀTMĀ and is therefore identical in nature with it. Just as the seed of a tree contains all the qualities of the tree, the Ātmā also carries the qualities of the Supreme Self.
• JĪVĀTMĀ, the individual soul, is the reflection of the Ātmā within an individual; a “wave” that emerges from the ocean of existence and wanders from embodiment to embodiment, and after a long process of development and experience again returns to the unity of the Ātmā. The soul that has manifested itself in a form, however, does not identify with its divine essence but rather with its attributes, the physical body, the mind, the thoughts, etc. The aim of the path of Yoga is to dispel this illusion.

Jivatma, Atma, Paramatma

What do you feel about the above? Seems to say that Jivatma identifies with the body-mind. So mind equals conscious/subconscious together...

Does Hinduism provide any concept of conscious/subconscious mind?

 

[Nakosis]

What motivates atheists (and/or materialists) to deny the will?

I am not a material/atheist myself but I don't think they deny the will so much as seeing it as just the product of materialistic brain activity.

Well, ok...

To deny the subconscious. Lust, fear, anger etc...?

That to me is what I'm denying. Initially anyway.

The subconscious mind is not rational. An advantage of the conscious mind. The conscious mind provided discipline. The subconscious mind provides speed and focus. Untrained the subconscious mind can get you into trouble. The conscious mind needs to provide training but has limited awareness of the subconscious mind. You need to deny it to recognize conscious control over it. Then you can start to train it. The reason I see for fasting, to know you can control the desire of the unconscious mind. Then you can work on training it for healthy eating.

 

[Nakosis]

Sorry, I don't understand the question. In what sense do atheists/materialists deny their own will?
And what does this have to do with the 'Gita passage in the OP?

I think it means to deny your lust, anger, fear, etc...

IOW, why not give in to your desires.

In this case, we learn, like anyone else, giving in to our desires can get us into trouble.

If you lash out in anger you might end up with consequences you'd rather not deal with.

Perhaps they see the intellect as the uncontrolled mind completely controlled by desire/emotions. Often as not that is true IMO. We tend to let our feelings run the show. However, I believe we can learn conscious control. Some religious practice helps us to develop conscious control of our mind.

 

[ChristineM]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

I'm anyone. What makes you think atheists deny their own will? Atheism is one thing and one thing only, the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Can i add that you need to make a huge leap of faith to attribute soul, which is an improved concept, to anything.

 

[Revoltingest]

I recommend moving the thread so that atheists can
respond without risk of earning infraction points.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm not sure why you think that atheists deny their own will. They just don't characterize its properties in the same way you do.

I don't believe in a 'soul' in any usual sense. Instead, the drives and will are internally generated states. And yes, we can use them to 'program' ourselves in many ways. But I see that as a product of the intellect and using feedback to get to a desired (willed) result

 

[epronovost]

In your last sentence you seem to have denied that ‘jivatma’ is superior to intellect. But you have not explained or justified your statement.

...

Neither has your Holy Book provided any convincing explanation for it's ontological categories of gross bodies, senses, mind, intellect and soul nor has it explained their supposed hierarchy. The premise of your question assumes the veracity of your Holy Book making answering your question either impossible or a fruitless effort.

 

[Nakosis]

I recommend moving the thread so that atheists can
respond without risk of earning infraction points.

Charvaka - Wikipedia.

I suspect a skeptic might see some familiarity with Hindu Charvaka philosophy.

 

[Koldo]

In your last sentence you seem to have denied that ‘jivatma’ is superior to intellect. But you have not explained or justified your statement.

...

I will try to explain my point of view like thus: Does it make sense to say my right arm is superior to my left leg (or even the other way around)? Even if I happen to use my arms more than my legs, don't I still need them to move around so my arms can be used? Why the need to label one thing as superior to the other?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

Dear Friend, as you know, all Hindus do not accept everything that is written in BhagawadGita, though even the atheist/materialists benefit from its teaching and respect it. All Hindus do not accept a particular deity out of the three (Shiva, Vishnu, Mother Goddess) to be the supreme. And some do without belief in any God. So, they are following their will and their desire for what appears to them to be truth. Many things that the theist Hindus believe have not been accepted by others in the long Hindu history.
So, why did you quote BhagawadGita when you yourself know that some Hindus differ with it?

 

[`mud]

Move the thread ?.....why?

 

[Left Coast]

***THREAD MOVED TO GENERAL RELIGIOUS DEBATES***

 

[shivsomashekhar]

The OP’s question is ridiculous.

A reading of the Gita followed by a bizarre question on why atheists are not aligning with the Gita?