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What matters, whats real?

RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Justanatheist said:
Which is exactly why I used the example of WLC rather than go to the lowest common denominator.
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You appointed him to speak on behalf of religious people. Now you say you appointed him because of his intellect; I'll take your word for that, as I have neither heard nor read a word that WCL has written.

I admire Christopher Hitchen's intellect, but I wouldn't put his words in your mouth then ask you to defend them; perhaps, on behalf of atheists everywhere, you would like to defend Hitchen’s position on the Iraq war? No, of course you wouldn’t. Nor would I ask you to.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Justanatheist said:
Live with it, if you want to prove things beyond doubt your on a hiding to nothing. Never ceases to amaze me how much people are always after certitudes, maybe that is why they choose religion.
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Well, welcome. You are also a cognitive relativist and accept this in the end:
"...
  • “Reason is whatever the norms of the local culture believe it to be”. (Hilary Putnam, Realism and Reason: Philosophical Papers, Volume 3 (Cambridge, 1983), p. 235.)
  • “The choice between competing theories is arbitrary, since there is no such thing as objective truth.” (Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. II (London, 1963), p. 369f.)
  • “There is no unique truth, no unique objective reality” (Ernest Gellner, Relativism and the Social Sciences (Cambridge, 1985), p. 84.)
  • “There is no substantive overarching framework in which radically different and alternative schemes are commensurable” (Richard Bernstein, Beyond Objectivism and Relativism (Philadelphia, 1985), pp. 11-12.)
  • “There is nothing to be said about either truth or rationality apart from descriptions of the familiar procedures of justification which a given society—ours—uses in one area of enquiry” (Richard Rorty, Objectivity, Relativism and Truth: Philosophical Papers, Volume 1 (Cambridge, 1991), p. 23.) ...
Cognitive relativism consists of two claims:

(1) The truth-value of any statement is always relative to some particular standpoint;

(2) No standpoint is metaphysically privileged over all others. ..."
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

It means that it is not an absolute that the world is natural. Or it is not an absolute that religion is what you claim it is.
 
J

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
RestlessSoul said:
You appointed him to speak on behalf of religious people. Now you say you appointed him because of his intellect; I'll take your word for that, as I have neither heard nor read a word that WCL has written.

I admire Christopher Hitchen's intellect, but I wouldn't put his words in your mouth then ask you to defend them; perhaps, on behalf of atheists everywhere, you would like to defend Hitchen’s position on the Iraq war? No, of course you wouldn’t. Nor would I ask you to.
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Now go back and provide the quote with the context I have written it in, this is why I doubt your understanding of english.
 
J

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Well, welcome. You are also a cognitive relativist and accept this in the end:
"...
  • “Reason is whatever the norms of the local culture believe it to be”. (Hilary Putnam, Realism and Reason: Philosophical Papers, Volume 3 (Cambridge, 1983), p. 235.)
  • “The choice between competing theories is arbitrary, since there is no such thing as objective truth.” (Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. II (London, 1963), p. 369f.)
  • “There is no unique truth, no unique objective reality” (Ernest Gellner, Relativism and the Social Sciences (Cambridge, 1985), p. 84.)
  • “There is no substantive overarching framework in which radically different and alternative schemes are commensurable” (Richard Bernstein, Beyond Objectivism and Relativism (Philadelphia, 1985), pp. 11-12.)
  • “There is nothing to be said about either truth or rationality apart from descriptions of the familiar procedures of justification which a given society—ours—uses in one area of enquiry” (Richard Rorty, Objectivity, Relativism and Truth: Philosophical Papers, Volume 1 (Cambridge, 1991), p. 23.) ...
Cognitive relativism consists of two claims:

(1) The truth-value of any statement is always relative to some particular standpoint;

(2) No standpoint is metaphysically privileged over all others. ..."
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

It means that it is not an absolute that the world is natural. Or it is not an absolute that religion is what you claim it is.
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And all you have to do is show me a religion that is not an closed system, because I do not deal in absolutes, there is always room for doubt, and that always means I could be wrong.
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
We Never Know said:
If John Doe believes in a god and you don't, why does what's he believes in matter so much to you?

Evidence for a god can neither show a god does or doesn't exist.

The arguement of both has to come from a belief because neither have supporting evidence(a god can neither be proven or disproven)

So my question is what makes anyone think their belief is stronger than the belief of others?
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I don't believe in God, I just lack the belief that there is no God, so I can't really participate in this discussion.
(or should I say, lack the lack of belief in a God)
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Justanatheist said:
And all you have to do is show me a religion that is not an closed system, because I do not deal in absolutes, there is always room for doubt, and that always means I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

I can't do that, because religion is not an absolute. So whether religion is closed, open or some versions are one or the other, depends on whether you can doubt if religion is a closed system?

So can you doubt that religion is a closed system? Or are you certain and it is beyond doubt and an absolute, that religion is a closed system?
 
J

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
RestlessSoul said:
I understand English well enough to know when I am being gratuitously insulted. Do you think such emotional outbursts help your case?
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No you are not, I fail to see how "lets look at the words of WLC" one chosen so as not to be confrontational can be translated into I "have appointed him to speak for all religious people".

Do you think saying this is not the 16th centaury helps your case, especially when we know 16th century barbarities are still being perpetrated by the religious this day.

Not one attempt to actually show how religion is not a closed system just a debate on whose words I chose to give an example of religion being a closed system.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Justanatheist said:
No you are not, I fail to see how "lets look at the words of WLC" one chosen so as not to be confrontational can be translated into I "have appointed him to speak for all religious people".

Do you think saying this is not the 16th centaury helps your case, especially when we know 16th century barbarities are still being perpetrated by the religious this day.

Not one attempt to actually show how religion is not a closed system just a debate on whose words I chose to give an example of religion being a closed system.
Click to expand...

That runs into the induction problem and you should know how to doubt induction.
 
J

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
So can you doubt that religion is a closed system? Or are you certain and it is beyond doubt and an absolute, that religion is a closed system?
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mikkel_the_dane said:
Is that an absolute and beyond doubt?
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And off we go down the rabbit hole of ignoring reasoned debate and deflecting down some philosophical navel gazing.
Ok I will revise my original words to reflect your debate so far,

With the given understanding that nothing is an absolute, not even our own existence or the existence of the person I am debating or even the forum itself, I assert that to the best of my knowledge (whilst understanding that knowledge cannot be proven to exist with absolute certitude) For all intensive purposes,

Science is a closed system.

With the given understanding that nothing is an absolute, not even our own existence or the existence of the person I am debating or even the forum itself, I assert that to the best of my knowledge (whilst understanding that knowledge cannot be proven to exist with absolute certitude) For all intensive purposes,

Religion is a closed system.

Happy now?
 
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