What makes pre-marital sex legitimate?

[Linus]

Expectations none. Experierence none...sexually compatablity unknown. That simple. Big gamble going into a marriage. How will you even know your sexual-self if you are a virgin? Without being explict what I know today at age 36 about my sexuality is light years from what I knew at age 20. The problem with your last statement is it based on faith and not fact. You may or may not be able to work things out because really neither (both being virgins) will have a strong grasp on what motivates you sexually. It's a roll of the dice with the stakes being an unhappy marriage.

If you are truly close to your partner the two of you can work anything out. It's not like I am clueless about sex. If there is a point at which you can start, you can build on it from there, try new things, etc. I'm sorry, but find it a little ridiculous to say that two poeple who love each other and are attracted to each other can't work out a sex life.

Second problem. Finding a virgin to marry. I don't know the exact stats but very few woman you will meet will be virgins. That is reality. I don't know how old you are but that stat really drops as you age and by 25 if you are not married and dating someone close to your age like sunstone brought-up it is very likley to be over 90 %. You in addition to ignoring the sexual aspects of marriage will have cut the field of eligablity down dramatically and I further surmise that they will have to be a Christian for you to consider marrying them which will trim it a tad bit (but not much ) more. Brother, that is a formula that baits disaster.

This isn't really a problem for me, personally. I have been dating another christian virign for about four years, and we plan to get married. I also go to school here in Tampa with about 500 others. I think I can manage.

If you conceed to marry a non-virgin (which will become more probable every year you wait to be married), than you will be the one of no-experience and I am guessing will feel frusterated that she is not a virgin and that you are. You already enter the marriage with a bad mark. And sadly a bad mark that was completely avoidable. If you say no way only virgins than you will choose that as a determining factor over everything else and marry someone less compatable to you because of her virginal status. You see where I am going with this? It is a lose-lose senerio. But it is also your reality at this point in time.

I see your point here, but you are making a key mistake. My determining factor for finding a wife is not whether she is a virgin or not, but rather whether she is a christian or not. If this is the case then all the important things like dedication to God (most important), virginity, social behavior and attitudes, etc. will all fall into place.

 

[robtex]

Linus, I started to argue this point by point. But i erased it. I have something else I want you to read instead. It regards your last statement, "My determining factor for finding a wife is not whether she is a virgin or not, but rather whether she is a christian or not." My Gf is a reformed Jew. Before she met me she was dating a Catholic man for about ---maybe a year. I am not positive on the time frame it might have been closer to two. But anyway, they sat down and had the "preparation for marriage" speech and he said to her "Can you accept Jesus Christ as your savior?" She was dumbfounded. I am Jew....why are you asking me that she question. He said, I could still marry you but our children will have to be raised Catholic. We would be wed in a Catholic church ..ect ect....their relationship ended soon afterwards. To this day they are still friends. He is married to a nice Catholic girl but I can tell by the way he talks to her that he still loves my gf in some ways. I can further tell that their friendship drives his current wife nuts and she hates my gf so much it drives her crazy.

I had another friend whom is 19. Her name for purposes of this forum is V. She was born hindu (now agnostic) and one day went out on a date with a muslim boy. She hid the date from her father and it became a relationship. Her father found out and interrogated her. She confessed and he banned her from his household and from his sight. That was 3 years ago. She has not spoken to him or seen him sense. The muslim boy is long gone. He was pressured by his family to marry a muslim woman and did so and was most likey encouraged to never speak to her again.

Linus by the same logic that you will only marry a Christian will you only befriend or trust a Christian? Can you have an athiest as a brother, friend lover, contemporary or truely to you, the ones on the outside of your religious beliefs are on the outside of your world? I have a very dear ****e (muslim) friend whom I use to work with. We would spend hours talking about things sometimes as simple as the making of hot tea. One day I asked him how he coped with differences in his religious belief and those of whom he associated with. He said, Robert, what you believe is not who you are. It is just what you believe. What you do and how you live is who you are.

 

[Sunstone]

Excellent post, Robtex! I wanted to give you frubals for it, but it said I had to spread some around before I could give them to you again.

I very much agree with your Muslim friend who said what you believe is not who you are. What you do and how you live is who you are.

 

[Druidus]

Would you consider having sex with someone you did not love to be wrong?

If you do not love them, then yes, it is wrong.

 

[Sunstone]

If you do not love them, then yes, it is wrong.

Druidus, suppose that both partners to the sex knew they were not in love with each other, and that both partners were consenting adults? Would it still be wrong of them to have sex? That is to say, suppose they were just friends who decided to have sex? Is that wrong?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... I can make a good debate that marriages were invented by men for the purpose of controlling there wife. QUOTE]

Laughing at this Michelle, I would say that most men are controlled by their wives.

I have to say that at this point in the thread, I think Linus has done a very good job of defending his position. The fact that he wishes to marry a Christian girl is understandable (at least, it is to me). I do agree with the point made by Robtex, that limiting yourself to believers in one faith can prevent the spread of understanding (on a macro scale), but in any individual case (like that of Linus), I do not think it is tremendously debilitating. The fact that Linus is participating in a forum like this one shows that he is aware of other belief systems. Whether he (or his fiance) embrace or reject other belief systems will probably not be based on ignorance of them, but a reasoned look at each on its own merits (at least this is my hope).

I did not marry until I was 31 years old, and for me personally, pre-marital sex was a way of life. I was not promiscuous (at least, not by my definition), but was involved in a series of monogamous relationships. Any of these could have resulted in marriage, and ultimately, one did. So I guess that I was a classical field experiment for the idea stated by Anders and expanded upon by Robtex.

I think all sex (pre-marital, etc.) should be between consenting adults. If the two (or more) individuals are consenting adults, I see nothing wrong with any form it takes - although my wife would disagree vehemently. Since I love her and am married to her, I abide by her views and I do so willingly.

TVOR

 

[Linus]

Great post, robtex. And I completely understand how differences in religion (within the context of marriage, especially) can create problems between two people. My grandmother on my dad's side is a non-denominational christian, and my grandfather is a Mormon. This may not sound like such a big deal to you, but there are major docrtinal issues there that can cause much conflict. The reprocussions almost split my father's family apart, and caused my grandmother to be hated by and separated from her in-laws for trying to convert her husband. I know what it's like, and I don't want anything like that. But there is no way that I would ever reject someone as a friend just because they have a different belief system from mine. My best friends from high school are almost all non-believers. Many scriptures tell me to love everyone. That is one of the most important aspects of Christianity.

 

[Sunstone]

Dang it! I'm having no luck in this thread at all! I wanted to give some frubals to Linus for that last post of his, but it says I have to spread them around before I can give them to him again. First Robtex, now Linus! Obviously, you two are posting too many good posts for me to keep up with you. How can you two be so thoughtless as to fire off so many good posts at once! Don't you know there are people out here trying to frubal you? *fumes*

 

[Michelle]

Great post, robtex. And I completely understand how differences in religion (within the context of marriage, especially) can create problems between two people. My grandmother on my dad's side is a non-denominational christian, and my grandfather is a Mormon. This may not sound like such a big deal to you, but there are major docrtinal issues there that can cause much conflict. The reprocussions almost split my father's family apart, and caused my grandmother to be hated by and separated from her in-laws for trying to convert her husband.

My in-laws are LDS (Mormon) and I can attest to the conflicts between LDS Christians and mainstream Christians.

 

[Linus]

Thanks Sunstone, I'll try to be more considerate next time.

My in-laws are LDS (Mormon) and I can attest to the conflicts between LDS Christians and mainstream Christians.

Yeah it can be pretty disheartening sometimes to see two followers of a doctrine that says to love another as you would love yourself who will resort to fighting and arguing just to get their way.

 

[Druidus]

Druidus, suppose that both partners to the sex knew they were not in love with each other, and that both partners were consenting adults? Would it still be wrong of them to have sex? That is to say, suppose they were just friends who decided to have sex? Is that wrong?

Well, I suppose wrong isn't the right word. I don't believe it's right, but I don't believe it is inherently wrong either. I certainly don't believe they should be punished.

 

[Sunstone]

Well, I suppose wrong isn't the right word. I don't believe it's right, but I don't believe it is inherently wrong either. I certainly don't believe they should be punished.

Having experienced both, I think sex with love is infinitely better than sex without love. But to say that sex without love is "wrong" (when no one is being decieved and it's between consenting adults) seems to me like the wrong word, too. It's not so much wrong, as it's inferior. Would you agree, Druidus?

 

[Pah]

Why must love enter into the discussion? Isn't it legitimate for people to experience sensual consensual pleasure?

-pah-

 

[Sunstone]

Why must love enter into the discussion? Isn't it legitimate for people to experience sensual consensual pleasure?

-pah-

I think it's legitimate for people to experience sensual consensual pleasure in the absence of love. Just as it's legitimate for people to buy an acceptable-quality Chevy rather than a superior-quality Rolls Royce. But I do believe that --- all else being equal -- sex between partners who love each other is superior in quality to sex between partners who do not love each other.

Of course, being of a scientific bent, I believe I should research this hypothesis further. Yes, rigorous testing is the only way to decide the issue! Any volunteers?

 

[Druidus]

Having experienced both, I think sex with love is infinitely better than sex without love. But to say that sex without love is "wrong" (when no one is being decieved and it's between consenting adults) seems to me like the wrong word, too. It's not so much wrong, as it's inferior. Would you agree, Druidus?

That's exactly what I mean.

Of course, being of a scientific bent, I believe I should research this hypothesis further. Yes, rigorous testing is the only way to decide the issue! Any volunteers?

Ooh, ooh!!!! Me! Pick ME!

 

[Michelle]

... I can make a good debate that marriages were invented by men for the purpose of controlling there wife. QUOTE]

Laughing at this Michelle, I would say that most men are controlled by their wives.

I do not know what I believe anymore about God. I was raised Southern Baptist and taught that homosexuality and adultry was a sin. I had to rethink most of what I was taught as a child and sometimes we need to try and look at things in a new perspective.

I think that an immoral act ( or sin if you wish) is a willful or intentional act that hurts someone emotionally or physically. I love onion burgers, not the Whitecastle wannabe kind but the good stuff, and eat them frequently. However, there are many people in the world that would not consider eating beef due to their belief. What is right for me may be wrong for you but we still cannot or should not judge each other. I think the best example of how I feel is the story on the cross. Mankind sent Jesus to his death. It is moot if it was part of God's big plan to save mankind or not since man was a WILLING participate. We willfully and intentionally executed Jesus. Jesus a man that taught us ,

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

,

was sent to his death. I think that having sex is fine as long as long as you don't hurt anybody, and that is my point of view.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I'm not going to judge anyone for having pre-marital sex--in general terms (two consenting adults who've know each other for at least a week )I don't see it as a moral issue. However, I have my own personal limits. Physical intimacy is how I convey affection, meaning that it would be impossible for me to have sex with someone that I wasn't incredbily crazy about. Another thing, I'm kind of a commitment phobe, but not in the sense you might think. When things start to heat up, I get incredibly paranoid about the level of commitment of my partner. Because of those reasons, I plan on waiting until marriage, or at least close to it. I might sneak into my fiancee's room the night before we get married, just to be a rebel. :flirt:

 

[Sunstone]

There's a sense in which I disagree with you, Ceridwen. It's this: Unlike you, I don't always need commitment from my partner. Under some circumstances, with some partners, I feel very comfortable without commitment. So, to that extent, we somewhat disagree.

But I think the more important thing is that we seem to agree on this: each person should know themselves, know their own needs and wants, and not abandon themselves or wholly repudiate their needs and wants merely in order to please a partner.

In other words, I agree with you that you should stick to your guns. If you want to be a virgin on your wedding night -- if that's profoundly "you" -- then anyone who is wise and falls in love with you will naturally love and respect that from his love and respect of you. BTW, from what I've seen, I think young women tend to sacrifice themselves -- sacrifice their sense of self -- a little too often in order to please their boyfriends. So, I'm very happy that you don't seem to have that tendency.

 

[Simon the Cat]

I think the concept of not needed a committment from a person to have sex with them is something that one gains with age and experience in having relationships that are intimate in some way.

 

[roli]

If this were the case, then sex would be physically impossible outside of marriage. That is patently not the case. Quite apart from anything else, cavemen were having sex and procreating, long before your Christian concept of marriage was even invented.

Yes, sex still goes on and so does life, cause and affect are not necessarily immediate and or physical, but emotional, physhological. The pleasure and passion of the sexual act is still present whether it is right or wrong, but so is the increase of sexually transmitted disease,single parents, depression,broken commitments,etc, just look up any web site on the stats comparing ,common law,married and unmarried sexual relationships.
If you are going to mention christian concepts make sure you mention that it is only a concept with man,don't shoot the massenger, but, law before a Holy God, who highly honours the marriage bed, considering it a sacred covenant made between 2 people before a Holy God, sealed originally by the blood providing she is a virgin ,but that is a rarity in society today.Not to place blame on any specific gender,but peer pressure and society says it's ok today to have sex freely and openly, Hebrews13:4 "Marriage bed is honourable in all and the bed is undefiled,but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge"