What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

[spacemonkey]

I believe Luke, I will gladly be called foolish

So how is it you belive Luke but not Mohammid, of Budha, or any prophet of another religion? I have read on many of your posts that you belive Jesus is the only way to God, so why do you chose to ignore so many other prophets.

 

[Popeyesays]

Out of curiosity, who is the son of King Ahza?. Going to the book of Yeshayahu (Isaiah) in the Tanakh, I find references to Isaiah himself as the son of Amoz. But I was wondering who this promised child might have been according to the traditions of Judaism.
Yeshayahu (Isaiah)
"1,1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 1,2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD hath spoken:"
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

"7,10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 7,11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' 7,12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' 7,13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? 7,14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 7,15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 7,16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. 7,17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.' {P}"
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no reason for me to doubt that they didn't take place Deut.

Of course there is, but you're operating on faith, not reason.

 

[Deut 13:1]

No need to choose one when there are so many. But no hurry, take your time as you cross reference the Old Testament prophecy with the New Testament fulfillment by Jesus.

Let me know when you choose to actually back up your positions, there is nothing else to discuss with someone who throws out claims without the least bit of evidence.

 

[joeboonda]

Thanks for your imput on Isaiah 53 and 61. I appreciate all your comments, I do want to say, that sometimes like in Ahaz' prophecy, there can be more than one thing going on, Jesus and the apostles thought so, and reasoned with folks out of the scriptures (O.T.) as to why the messiah had to come first to die for our sins. Even Caiaphas said in John 18:14, it was expedient that one man should die for the people. In Luke 24:25-26 Jesus was talking to the two on the road to Emmaus, and said,"

O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken; Ought not christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Boy, that guy Luke could really write!

 

[Deut 13:1]

Out of curiosity, who is the son of King Ahza?. Going to the book of Yeshayahu (Isaiah) in the Tanakh, I find references to Isaiah himself as the son of Amoz. But I was wondering who this promised child might have been according to the traditions of Judaism.
Yeshayahu (Isaiah)
"1,1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 1,2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD hath spoken:"
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

"7,10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 7,11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' 7,12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' 7,13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? 7,14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 7,15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 7,16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. 7,17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.' {P}"
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

Regards,
Scott

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true

Scroll down to verse 14, and let me know if you have questions afterward.

 

[blueman]

Let me know when you choose to actually back up your positions, there is nothing else to discuss with someone who throws out claims without the least bit of evidence.

The evidence is the scriptures. If you choose not to believe it, that's fine. It is right there in the historical record. You can debate all day about it's validity, but there is a wealth of historical record to reference. This serves as my backup in that regard.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Thanks for your imput on Isaiah 53 and 61. I appreciate all your comments, I do want to say, that sometimes like in Ahaz' prophecy, there can be more than one thing going on, Jesus and the apostles thought so, and reasoned with folks out of the scriptures (O.T.) as to why the messiah had to come first to die for our sins. Even Caiaphas said in John 18:14, it was expedient that one man should die for the people. In Luke 24:25-26 Jesus was talking to the two on the road to Emmaus, and said,"

O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken; Ought not christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

1) Where in the O.T. is it seen that the Messiach must die for our sins?

2) Have you ever read Devarim (Duet) 13:1-7??
If not, I suggest you read it before you come to me spouting off your beliefs that completely contradict the Torah.

All you've done is quote NT sources that explain that he must die.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The evidence is the scriptures.

That statement deserves nothing but ridicule.

 

[blueman]

Of course there is, but you're operating on faith, not reason.

Your a naturalist, so you discount all that is related to the supernatural. Your opinions are going to be shaped by that bias. You have to have a measure of faith to follow God. He wants you to have more than knowledge and intellect to follow Him and know that He is God. He requires for you to have faith. A relationship with Him does not exist without it.

 

[blueman]

Of course there is, but you're operating on faith, not reason.

Yeah and archeaologists have backed him up as well. If he was so precise in regards to the more minor details, what was his motive for embellishment in the major subject matter in which he articulated in the books of Luke and Acts?

 

[Deut 13:1]

The evidence is the scriptures. If you choose not to believe it, that's fine. It is right there in the historical record. You can debate all day about it's validity, but there is a wealth of historical record to reference. This serves as my backup in that regard.

WHAT EVIDENCE??? WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES??? BACK YOUR POSITION UP WITH SCRIPTURE. CONSTANTLY SAYING, IT'S THERE WHILE REFUSING TO SAY WHERE IT IS, IS PURE IGNORANCE, and I believe that you are above ignorance. I corrected a mistranslation to which your response is: If you look somewhere, you'll see jesus, that's a pathetic argument. At least people like Katzpur or Michel or someone else is they offer scripture to support their position instead of, "Look harder".

AGAIN: Back your position up!!!!

I've been asking for this scripture for the past 10 posts, so either cite it, or please be quiet/shut up. Simple as that, this is a debate forum as I got told by Pah, so debate.

I apologize if it seems mean, I just don't see a point in seeing you say, "Look harder" while not offering any evidence...

 

[Popeyesays]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true

Scroll down to verse 14, and let me know if you have questions afterward.

"the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign<SPAN class=TanachRashiBody>

 

[Deut 13:1]

"the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign<SPAN class=TanachRashiBody>

Is there a question??

 

[Popeyesays]

I read the material, the post turned to gibberish.

I meant, historically who was the "son" of the young woman. If the prophecy was fulfilled before 700 years, who was the individual?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Deut 13:1]

I read the material, the post turned to gibberish.

I meant, historically who was the "son" of the young woman. If the prophecy was fulfilled before 700 years, who was the individual?

Regards,
Scott

The women is Isaiah's wife. Look to Isaiah 8:3.

 

[joeboonda]

1) Where in the O.T. is it seen that the Messiach must die for our sins?

2) Have you ever read Devarim (Duet) 13:1-7??
If not, I suggest you read it before you come to me spouting off your beliefs that completely contradict the Torah.

All you've done is quote NT sources that explain that he must die.

Ok, I read Duet 13:1-7. Jesus came to fulfil the law, not to abolish it. Here is just one OT source: Isaiah 53:5,12 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. Because He poured out His soul unto death, and he was numbered with the transgressors.

It was common for Jewish interpreters before the time of Christ to teach that here Isaiah spoke of the Jewish Messiah. Only after early Christians began using the text apologetically with great force did it become in rabbinical teaching an expression of the suffering Jewish nation. This view is implausible in the context of Isaiah's standard references to the Jewish people in the first-person plural (our or we) whereas he always refers to the Messiah in the third person singular, as in Isaiah 53 (he and his and him).

 

[Deut 13:1]

Ok, I read Duet 13:1-7. Jesus came to fulfil the law, not to abolish it. Here is just one OT source: Isaiah 53:5,12 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. Because He poured out His soul unto death, and he was numbered with the transgressors.

You just proved my point. Let me rebold some words for you to think about. Notice how they are all PAST tense?? Why would something written 700+ years before Jesus use the past tense if it was referring to him?

Also, it is we WERE healed, FUTURE tense.

It was common for Jewish interpreters before the time of Christ to teach that here Isaiah spoke of the Jewish Messiah.

First of all, you know absolutely nothing about Jewish beliefs, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped acting like you did.

Only after early Christians began using the text apologetically with great force did it become in rabbinical teaching an expression of the suffering Jewish nation.

Please don't be stupid, let's think about this together. Why would Isaiah write in the past tense, if he was describing Jesus?

This view is implausible in the context of Isaiah's standard references to the Jewish people in the first-person plural (our or we) whereas he always refers to the Messiah in the third person singular, as in Isaiah 53 (he and his and him).

No it's not, if you had any understanding of Hebrew, you would understand this.

To show that the Jews were called Avdi, my servant (3rd person singular), look at Isaiah 49:3, 45:4, 44:1, 2:21, 41:8

Are all those talking about Jesus too?

 

[joeboonda]

The first Christians, they were Jews, in Jerusalem, do you believe they were wrong? What about ALL the prophecies that came true about Jesus, how he was pierced, his hands and feet and side, his bones not broken, his garments and lots cast, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, money thrown into God's houlse, price given for Potter's field, crucified with thieves, forsaken by his disciples, accused by false witnesses, silent before his accusers, wounded and bruised, smitten and spit upon, mocked, fell under the cross, made intercession for his persecuters, rejected by his own people, hated without a cause, friends stood afar off, people shook their heads, stared upon, to suffer thirst, gall and vinegar offered to him, his forsaken cry, comitted his spirit to God, heart broken, darkness over the land, buried in a rich man's tomb, born of the seed of woman, born of a virgin, son of God, seed of Abraham, Son of Isaac, Son of Jacob, Tribe of Judah, Family Line of Jesse, House of David, Born at Bethlehem, Presented with Gifts, Herod Kills Children, His pre-existence, called Lord, called Immanuel, called prophet, priest, judge, king, special anointing of Holy Spirit, his zeal for God, Preceded by a messenger, ministry begins in Galilee, of miracles, parables, would enter temple, enter Jerusalem on a donkey, called a stone of stumbling to Jews, Light to gentile, resurrection, ascension, seated on right hand of God... and I can give you both the OT and NT verse for EVERY ONE of those prophecies. Why can you not believe?