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What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by bhakthi, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Precisely ... :biglaugh:
     
  2. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    Because how can you claim that you are right, without being able to show why you are right? If the truth is relative to revelation, what qualifies it as truth in the first place?
     
  3. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Fine, get technical, this is what you said:
    "8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke."
    You see where you have "HE had been stroke", the word is LAMO, 3rd person plural, so explain to me why your translators would purposely misleed you so much.

    Because your arguments rest on scripture that just doesn't exist. Your right!!! The bible DOES tell us who it refers to... You know all those he's and him's? It tells you that, "My severvant", Avdi in hebrew is the person this passage refers to.. Now where else is Avdi used by Isaiah?

    Isaiah 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 41:8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me,

    To describe Israel... So why does this passage represent Jesus and all the other my servants by Isaiah don't.

    Go ahead, not that it will probably help much.
     
  4. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    Another convincing fact for me--If Jesus wasn't the Messiah, the virgin-born Son of God, when he was being chastised, beaten and crucified, why wouldn't Mary have simply proclaimed, "I lied. I wasn't a virgin when He was conceived. He's not the foretold Messiah. He just thinks He is, but He's crazy."
    Wouldn't this have saved His life? Everyone would have stopped, thinking, "This man is just out of his mind and a victim of the lie His mother told Him."


    Being a mother myself, I would have certainly been tempted to do so. What mother wouldn't?--saving her child from horrific torture and death at any cost, unless His being the Messiah was the truth. Mary knew her Son was the Son of God. How could she lie to save Him from the very reason He came? :)
     
  5. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    Dumb question--what's a frubal and why do I have one? :)
     
  6. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    And what if a Rabbi said Pork was kosher? Another hypothetical question...
     
  7. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu Holding All and None

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    Many people's beliefs make them do foolish or ignorant things, that they know will hurt them or perhaps even cause them to die. But overall, if a person's beliefs and "faith" are strong enough, they'll send themselves to be slaughtered just to prove something. This could have been the case with Jesus. Jesus could have "believed" very strongly that God was telling him that the ways that he was teaching were the ways of God and that if Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, he would be able to die for the sins of the world.

    There are many prophecies written about the Messiah, but the term messiah itself has different interpretations. To certain Jews, it would mean a military conqueror. The concept of a spiritual Messiah applied to a very specific group of followers, what you could call the "Jesus Movement" all that believed Jesus would suffer and die for the sins of the world.

    We also see later that there are many differing views on Jesus, even from each Gospel viewpoint in history. Each author was writing for a specific group of Christians, some who were more directly involved with Jews, others who were being persecuted and some in very different situations altogether. In other words, no matter how many Gospel texts you quote, even if you quote Paul the Apostle himself, each of these "great men" as you refer to them as, those who were "inspired by God", remember first of all that none of them agreed about everything. If anything, they disagreed more about Jesus than they agreed.
     
  8. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    How clever :D, however, any mother knows that she would do whatever it takes to save her child, unless, of course, He's the Son of God sent to save the world.

    More people become followers of Christ every day. Many thousands of Jews in recent years have become Christians, believing that Jesus Christ fulfilled every messianic prophecy of the O.T. More and more Muslims have come to Christ as well, even though this is dangerous for many. Could this not be the work of the Holy Spirit? Or are there simply that many gullible Gentiles, Jews and Muslims who have chosen to believe an "ignorant fable", which started with a handful of Jews, and has grown worldwide in the past 2000 years? Thousands, if not millions, convert to Christianity, but how many born-again Chrisitans have your heard of converting to Muslim or Judaism?

    If Jesus were an insignicant human being, why did his birth literally split our reference of time in two? Couldn't God really 'so love the world'? <hope these aren't too hypothetical ?'s ;) >

    I suppose it's just a question of one's personal faith, but if we truly desire to know the truth (regardless of what the truth is), and ask God to reveal the truth to us, I believe He will, without question.
     
  9. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    Can you give examples of "disagreements"?

    If any of us spent 3 years, along with several of our friends, following and learning from one certain person (say, Jesus, for example :)), then we sat down and separately wrote our own accounts of our experiences, we'd all have differing variances of pretty much the same story. This doesn't necessarily mean we would disagree with or contradict one another.
     
  10. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. ;)

    Any mother knows that? Debatable, what about mothers who kill their own sons? Again, what does being the Son of Hashem have to do with saving a kid?

    My guess would be more people become athiest/agnostic then anything else. Besides, what does getting converts have to do with a sign??? The Messianic prophecy which wasn't fullfilled is that EVERYONE will know Moshiach.... Buddhists and Hindu's make up like 1/3rd of the population, that's definetly not everyone. Sure you guys interpret it as "in your heart", but you'll have to do better to convince me.

    What if in that case, a person ends up athiest?
     
  11. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu Holding All and None

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    To answer your question, perhaps you need to look deeper at each individual Gospel, as Mark's was a lot different than Matthew's. And Luke's Gospel, don't even get me started. It's quite better in many ways than the other sexist and racist Christian writers, to me at least. Oh and if Paul was so great, why does he insist that he knows exactly was Jesus was teaching. He could have listened to him all he wanted, Jesus still held Paul in some degree of distrust in MARK'S Gospel, as opposed to Matthew's, which holds him in high regard. And Matthew focused a bit more on Jewish aspects of religion as they relate to Christianity. John...another complicated figure, undoubtedly his Gospel holds very different presentations of Jesus than the preceding three. There are disagreements, not to say that they all didn't believe Jesus was divine, that was an earlier time, divided between those who believed he was fully human, fully God and fully human, or fully God. The only of these three divisions I remember is the first, which is called Nestorian. I believe Modern Day Christians would call me a blashpemer and a heretic for that, but so be it.
     
  12. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    Mothers who love their children would die for their children. Just a couple of days ago, I watched a story on my local news program where a 50+ yr old woman ran into an engulfed by flames home to try to save her 19 yr old son. They both died. It's instinctive for 'most' mothers.
    I assume Mary was like 'most' mothers, however, in the case of Mary, she would have had to lie, and thus call God a liar, to try to save her Son. That's why she couldn't do it. She knew who Jesus was and that His death was fulfilling God's plan of salvation for all. Watching her son suffer and die was surely heartbreaking beyond comprehension, and even though she could have tried to stop it, who was she to stop God's will?

    What scripture says 'everyone'? I'm not doubting it says that, I'd just like to read the scriptures myself. My belief--everyone will know Jesus is Lord/Messiah, but for many it will be too late.
    As far as convincing you of what's in my heart, I can't possibly do that. The Holy Spirit can convince though. If one truly believes in God, do they not believe with their heart as well as their mind?
    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (kjv)

    Seems they wouldn't have been paying much attention to God then.:banghead3 Many don't.

    Don't you wonder why nations such as the U.S. (something like 85% claim to be Christian) would believe in a man born over 2000 years ago, a JEW, as the true Savior of the world? And more and more people are coming to Christ every day, across the world. Could this not be the power of God? :)
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And I assume that you haven't a clue since, as far as anyone can reasonable tell, you're dealing with late 1st century fable.
     
  14. RAZBERRY

    RAZBERRY Member

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    :biglaugh: I guess, way back in the first century, mothers could have been more prone to eat their young rather than protect them. I tend to doubt it though.
     
  15. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT

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    2 Timothy 3:16 'All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness'

    Funny how i use the bible to prove my points. How foolish of me.
     
  16. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT

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    I wasn't trying to be funny there. Anyway, i did a bit of research....well actually i just typed in LAMO and hebrew and it came up with this.

    To summarize: lamo is an old poetic form that seems to be a lengthening of the singular lo. But it is often used with a plural meaning. It is used with singular nouns that have a collective meaning (Rabbi Singer’s point in Isa. 53). But Isa. 44:15 is a clear instance where it is used in the singular for a singular noun. That it also has a singular meaning in Isa. 53:8 is confirmed by ancient copies that use lo instead of lamo.

    There is also strong evidence from the text of Isaiah to believe that the Righteous Servant is singular. The following description could apply only to an individual:


    I gave my back to the smiters,

    and my cheeks to those who pulled out the beard:
    I hid not my face
    from shame and spitting (Isa. 50:6 of the servant--v. 10).




    This is the same figure who is beaten in Isa. 53:5:



    But he was wounded for our transgressions,

    he was bruised for our iniquities;
    upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
    and with his stripes we are healed.


    These passages describe accurately the treatment suffered by Jesus:



    Then they spat in his face, and struck him; and some slapped him, saying “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?” (Matthew 26:67-68).


    Then Pilate took Jesus and scourged him. And the soldiers plaited a crown of thorns, and put it on his head ... and struck him with their hands (John 19:1-3).


    For these reasons we must conclude that lamo in Isa. 53:8 is singular


    taken from

    http://www.outreachtojudaism.net/lamoart.html


    Also, consider other scriptures. For instance

    Mark 1:1

    [The] beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ: 2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way;)

    According to your theory, this guy obviously misread Isiah's writings too. In this scripture it is talking about John the baptist who would prepare the way for Jesus.


    Isaiah 53:1-8

    2 And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him.

    'Like a root out of a waterless land.' Doesn't this refer to The birth of Christ. The fact that he came from a virgin, like a root coming from a waterless land.


    3 He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. 4 Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5 But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. 6 Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one. 7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth.

    8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. 9 And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.

    This is exactly what happens to Jesus while on earth. ^


    And if there's any more doubt, Jesus himself says..


    Matthew 13:10-14

    '10 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. '

    do you fall into this catergory?

    Im sorry to say i don't understand your other points..and even so, I know who Isiah is referring to anyway..
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Foolish indeed. Even more foolish to rely on pseudepigraphy, and absurdly foolish to think that anyone other than the most naive fundamentalist would take this quote as a guarantee of anything whatsoever. Foolish but not at all funny.
     
  18. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT

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    ..to say i 'rely on pseudepigraphy' is truly foolish in itself. AS if to say i'm stretched for resources on something that i've answered with the bible itself, a book i do and can rely on.

    If anything, the bible is guarantee, as 'God cannot lie'. You make out I'm actually differing from what the bible says when i'm not.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The argument is worthless; have fun with your merry-go-round. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    And a couple days before that, I found a story about a mother who murdered her child, what's your point?

    Okay, and here we have the first problem with your logic. You're assuming this and that. If anything her actions speak volumes about her character. In your example above, the mother did everything she could to save her child, even giving up her life... Did Mary do everything in her power to save her 'one' and only son such as giving up her life? No? Then your assumption about her doing everything in her power is wrong.

    Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 2. I'd have to look up the exact verses, but I think it talks about it in those chapters.

    So Moshiach didn't come then? Either everyone KNOWS Yeshua or they don't. You can't have it both ways.

    Yes, well, as Jews we don't have the idea of a New Covenent in mind. The torah is all that is needed.

    Define a Christian for me, I highly doubt that 85% has much in common. I mean, the nation is what 50-50 on abortion? Seems to me that those 85% don't have much in common.

    And I HIGHLY doubt that there are more people becoming observant followers of G-d then there are people who are becoming agnostic/athiest due to the secularism of the world.
     
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