What makes Jesus so special?

[dawny0826]

Yes, I know, he died for our sins, but ( Christians are not going to like me today) haven't many people died to free others without prior knowledge that everything will be okay?



Could a mod please move this to religious debates please?

I can't fathom anything greater than sacrificing yourself for the SINS of the ENTIRE world...so that the world, if they so choose to...can be freed from sin and death.

Many may have died to free others but only in a worldy sense. Christ is the ONLY whose blood washed us clean from every negative...every pain...every blemish...it is only BY his blood that we can live.

(This is coming from a CHRISTIAN of course. )

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear May,

Its cherry-picking time again, I guess.

Jesus did not come down from haven in any literal sense. He was born of the womb of a woman, just like everyone else on earth.

The TEACINGS He taught, and the LAW that He gave, and the LOVE that He showed us came down from heaven in a sense, but Jesus was a man like anyman, or His appearance has no meaning.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lilithu]

from another site:
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html)

But isn't a blood sacrifice required in order to obtain forgiveness?

No. Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all.
The passage that people ordinarily cite for the notion that blood is required is Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." But the passage that this verse comes from is not about atonement; it is about dietary laws, and the passage says only that blood is used to obtain atonement; not that blood is the only means for obtaining atonement. Leviticus 17:10-12 could be paraphrased as "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood."

and another:
(http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html)

Missionaries contend that the blood sacrificial system is man's only conduit to atonement and insist that there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. They maintain that the Bible sets forth only blood atonement to expiate sin. Evangelical Christians assert that for the past nineteen centuries, since the destruction of the second Temple in 70 C.E., Jews have lacked the essential and indispensable animal sacrificial system for atonement. Consequently, they maintain, God must have provided a blood atonement in place of the animal sacrifices of the past. This sacrifice, they insist, is the death of Jesus on the cross.

In support of their claim that atonement can only be achieved through the shedding of blood, missionaries cite Leviticus 17:11, which reads,

This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

They conclude from this verse that only by being covered in the blood of the cross can man have any hope of being forgiven by God for his sins.

In response to this argument, I have explained that contrary to the missionary claim that blood sacrifice is the only method of atonement in the Bible, there are three methods of atonement clearly defined in the Jewish scriptures: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice (known in the Jewish scriptures as korban chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man's most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally.

-----

They're basically saying the same thing but I figured it would show that I didn't just pull from one naive sugar-coated exegesis. If you wish to discount them all, so be it.

 

[Halcyon]

It is not my habit to be arrogant enough to proclaim who is and who is not a Christian. You can search through all my posts on RF looking for evidence of me defining an exclusive Christianity and you will find zero posts. In fact, I often say that it is not my job to be the Christian police. Ask anyone who knows me on this forum and you will hear that said first hand.

Buttercup, i apologise if what i said came across as an attack on you, that wasn't my intention. I know you are not an arrogant nor exclusionist person.
I mearly felt it necessary to comment on what you said here;

Christ's death on the cross as a final blood atonement for sin is CENTRAL to Christianity. If a person does not believe that fact I don't see how they can call themselves a Christian as everything revolves around that theme.

And again here;

Yet, the message of Christ’s blood atonement for sin is such integral doctrine of Christianity that a person who wishes to be a Christian must acknowledge that premise or risk misinterpreting Christ’s entire reason for existence.

Because i do not believe it is true.
I am a Christian, i'm a Gnostic Christian. You are a Catholic Christian of the Church of Paul.
Christ's sacrifice as atonement is central to your sect of Christianity. To be a Pauline Christian you are correct, you must accept this doctrine.

My interpretation of Christ's teachings is very different to yours and, obviously, i believe it is your church that has misinterpreted those teachings.
I can call myself Christian because i am, and even though i believe you have it wrong i don't have a problem with you calling yourself Christian.
I'm only disagreeing with you saying that i can't call myself Christian because i don't believe in your doctrine. I meant no personal offense.

 

[joeboonda]

What the Bible says about Paul going out to persecute the Christians and then is completely changed when Jesus appears to him on the road to Damascus is quite amazing to me. He is 'the least of the apostles', of whom the NT books were written. You had to be close to Jesus to be allowed in the canon. Anyway, as I see it, God is so perfectly holy, that we could never with our own righteousness live with Him eternaly. Our own efforts are useless, as we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus died, not only to pay for our sins, but to impute unto us His righteousness in place of ours. Our own righteousness, no matter how good it is compared to other humans, is as filthy rags to God, the more we wipe, the dirtier we become. Salvation is a free gift, the substitutiary death of Christ having paid for it all, if we place our trust in it. This is the gospel, the good news, it is the foundation of Christianity. How else are we to stand before God? The Bible speaks of no other way than to come to God through the cross.

 

[may]

Dear May,

Its cherry-picking time again, I guess.

Jesus did not
ome down from haven in any literal sense. He was born of the womb of a woman, just like everyone else on earth.

The TEACINGS He taught, and the LAW that He gave, and the LOVE that He showed us came down from heaven in a sense, but Jesus was a man like anyman, or His appearance has no meaning.

Regards,
Scott

On a number of occasions Jesus himself testified to his own existence in heaven before becoming flesh on earth.
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me John 6;38

(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.​

(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.​

(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.....................and yes he was born of a woman as you say , amazing is it not?
There is no question that Jesus had a prehuman life. As the Word or Logos he had been with God in the beginning.
So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world wasJohn 17;5 yes before the world of mankind Jesus was along side his father Jehovah

 

[Sunstone]

What makes Jesus so special? Just look at the paintings of him: He was the only Frenchman ever born to a Jewish mother in Palestine 2,000 years ago. That's pretty special, don't you think?

 

[lilithu]

What makes Jesus so special? Just look at the paintings of him: He was the only Frenchman ever born to a Jewish mother in Palestine 2,000 years ago. That's pretty special, don't you think?

Apparently, he gets his fair features from his father's side of the family.

(Tho I have to say that when I see painting of Mary, she looks pretty European herself. Is that because she was immaculately conceived too?)

 

[Popeyesays]

On a number of occasions Jesus himself testified to his own existence in heaven before becoming flesh on earth.
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me John 6;38

(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.​

(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.​

(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.....................and yes he was born of a woman as you say , amazing is it not?
There is no question that Jesus had a prehuman life. As the Word or Logos he had been with God in the beginning.
So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world wasJohn 17;5 yes before the world of mankind Jesus was along side his father Jehovah

He did come from God - the Revelation given Him was from God. He did exist before all else because He was the Word made flesh. The Word was the Creation, when God said "BE!" He ws the reason for man's Creation.

The Spirit of God embodied in Jesus was from Heaven, but it never left Heaven. And it never arose from earth, because it was here all along.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

Yes, I know, he died for our sins, but ( Christians are not going to like me today) haven't many people died to free others without prior knowledge that everything will be okay?

Yes, and these people are to be greatly admired. Jesus even said, “Greater love hath no man that he would lay down his life for his friends.” For someone who doesn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, it’s easy enough to say, “Yes, I know, he died for our sins, but…” without giving any thought whatsoever to what that really means. From my own perspective, Jesus' sacrifice far exceeds the sacrifice of anyone else who has ever lived, because it required that He take upon himself the guilt incurred by every man and woman who has ever lived. I don’t believe that He merely died for us, but that He suffered as no one else could potentially done in order that God’s demands for justice and simultaneous desire for mercy could both be met.

Yeshua is special to me because i think that he (or those who used him as a voice for their beliefs) was a good teacher. I see truth in many of his teachings.

How does one decide what part of the New Testament account of Jesus’ life to believe and what part to reject (assuming that you accept any of it at all, as it appears you do)? If Jesus is, in fact, who and what He claimed to be, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that he was “a good teacher.” A good teacher, i.e. someone you would want to emulate, wouldn’t claim that the only way to God was through Him. If Jesus isn’t the only way to God, He is not only a fraud, but the greatest blasphemer who has ever lived. I can’t imagine why anyone would see such a person as “special.” A lot people have lived exemplary lives and have not claimed to be the only means by which we can be saved. If Jesus Christ was a liar, He should not be worshipped or even admired. I happen to believe that He was everything He said He was. That’s why He’s special to me.

I personally don't believe that Jesus died for our sins so that part is moot for me. I don't believe that God requires a blood sacrifice. And I don't believe that Jesus had foreknowledge that everything was going to be ok.

Obviously, you’re a bright woman, lilithu, and I’ve got to admit that I agree with the vast majority of your posts. But again, as a non-Christian, you see Jesus Christ as being a good man and nothing more. But that is not what He claimed to be. I believe that God did require a blood sacrifice. The fact that Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the “Lamb” to be offered up to redeem the sins of mankind is something I wouldn’t even attempt to prove to someone who could not accept it on faith. Of course, my Church’s teachings include some teachings in addition to those specifically mentioned in the Bible, so I wouldn’t expect even other Christians to go along with what I believe. According to LDS doctrine, God does not look upon sin “with the least degree of allowance.” It’s not a matter of whether our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds. If we have committed even one sin, however small, we are no longer worthy to return to God’s presence. The only way around this dilemma is if someone who is completely without sin himself literally assumes our guilt.

One LDS author (Stephen E. Robinson) has explained it thus: “If Christ is infinite and unlimited, but I am finite and limited, and we become one, what do Christ and I together add up to? What is the sum of an infinite, positive quantity and a limited, negative quantity (x + -x)? Why, infinity, of course! And the math is the same whether I (the finite part) am a ten or a five or a one. Infinity plus any amount, positive or negative, equals infinity.”

To me, Christ is special because He did for me what I don’t believe anyone else was capable of doing. Furthermore, He did it because He loves me. It was a sacrifice willingly and unselfishly offered, and it would have been offered even if I were the only sinner in the world.

 

[Popeyesays]

Squirt said: "How does one decide what part of the New Testament account of Jesus’ life to believe and what part to reject (assuming that you accept any of it at all, as it appears you do)? If Jesus is, in fact, who and what He claimed to be, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that he was “a good teacher.” A good teacher, i.e. someone you would want to emulate, wouldn’t claim that the only way to God was through Him. If Jesus isn’t the only way to God, He is not only a fraud, but the greatest blasphemer who has ever lived."

Popeyesays:
I believe Jesus was educated by God to educate us. That it is His teachings which point the way to God through Himself.
Jesus never said that a man could not come to God through the Law of Moses in my recollection.
Jesus never said Abraham was not the way to God.

So if there had been ways to God before, and Jesus says that the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth will come to men, then He is not saying He is the only way to God.

Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Krshna, Zarathustra, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha`u'llah are all divine educators and Their teachings are the way to God.

Jesus did not lie even once. It is those who came after that twisted His words to their own agenda.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

Jesus never said that a man could not come to God through the Law of Moses in my recollection. Jesus never said Abraham was not the way to God.

Actually, in John 14:6, we read, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

An oversimplication of the LDS belief, perhaps, but Jesus did not say He was "a" way or "a" truth. He said quite the opposite.

 

[lunamoth]

well if you believe the story.......he can turn water into wine


that's pretty handy to have around

i wonder if it's kosher for passover?

Well, He was Jewish...

lunamoth

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually, in John 14:6, we read, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

An oversimplication of the LDS belief, perhaps, but Jesus did not say He was "a" way or "a" truth. He said quite the opposite.

I find no disagreement with the verse, none at all. But other Prophets said the same thing about Themselves as well.

Besides, in my opinion there is only one path, but many lamp posts.

Regards,
Scott

 

[9harmony]

Actually, in John 14:6, we read, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

An oversimplication of the LDS belief, perhaps, but Jesus did not say He was "a" way or "a" truth. He said quite the opposite.

i find that most people are unaware that Jesus was not the only one to say something similar...

The Way
CHRISTIANITY, John 14:6
1. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through Me.

BUDDHISM, Dhammapada 20:274
2. This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.

ISLAM, Imam'Ali, Hadith
3. Whoso seeks guidence elsewhere, God will lead him astray.

BAHA'I, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, P.169
4. He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from
all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.

HINDUISM, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
5. Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.

ZOROASTRIANISM, The Teachings of the Magi, P.22
6. There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.

so imho it appears to me that each of these statements are referring to the Spirit of God is the way, and each of the prophets/messengers was the channel during their specific mission through which that spirit manifests itself to us.

 

[lunamoth]

Jesus was special because he was Immanuel, God with us. His life, death and resurrection changed the context of our relationship with the Father.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Halcyon]

How does one decide what part of the New Testament account of Jesus’ life to believe and what part to reject (assuming that you accept any of it at all, as it appears you do)? If Jesus is, in fact, who and what He claimed to be, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that he was “a good teacher.” A good teacher, i.e. someone you would want to emulate, wouldn’t claim that the only way to God was through Him. If Jesus isn’t the only way to God, He is not only a fraud, but the greatest blasphemer who has ever lived. I can’t imagine why anyone would see such a person as “special.” A lot people have lived exemplary lives and have not claimed to be the only means by which we can be saved. If Jesus Christ was a liar, He should not be worshipped or even admired. I happen to believe that He was everything He said He was. That’s why He’s special to me.

I reject the epistles, and i take great care when reading the 4 gospels as i believe they have been corrupted with Catholic interpretation.
Yes, he was a blasphemer, a blasphemer against a false God, the God that blinds.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

This simply says to follow his teachings and not those false teachings that were prevalent at the time.
At that time and place in history Jesus was the only way to know the Father. There were men before him and there have been men since him that also knew the way.

 

[joeboonda]

I have to agree with Squirt. Jesus is the only one of all these religious leaders that actually died and rose again for our sins, the others are still in their graves. Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, none other name is given under Heaven whereby we may be saved. It is through Christ alone that we have been reconciled to God, the sinless sacrifice, the only sinless man ever to walk this earth.

 

[Abdul Latif]

I love him as a noble Prophet of Allah, who preached pure, un-corrupted monotheism. The light of his message won over hearts and minds, his hands cured the blind and revived the dead, and he was of virgin birth, to a woman chaste and esteemed.

“Such was Jesus the son of Mary: it is a statement of truth about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him!
Chapter 19, Verse 34

“O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One: glory be to him: (Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”
Chapter 4, Verse 171

“That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.”
Chapter 4, Verses 156-159

He was a Prophet; no more, no less. And we love him dearly for it.
​

 

[9harmony]

"XXXVI. Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence 86 exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)