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What makes Catholicism right ?

Hello i am very interessed in Catholicism. I am an ex Shia Muslim and i find Catholicism very beautiful compared to the cold protestant worship.. (no offense) but my question is what makes Catholicism the right religion ?
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Research it at least on the internet.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reltrue.htm

The claim to be the "one true church" relates to the first of the Four Marks of the Church mentioned in the Nicene Creed: "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church".

cath·o·lic
(kăth′ə-lĭk, kăth′lĭk)
adj.
1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: "The 100-odd pages offormulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found"(Scientific American).
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: "what was of catholic rather than national interest" (J.A. Froude).

So catholic (note small case "c") simply means universal.
The Catholic church is not universal.
Research and read and research some more.

The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
^^^ from: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

I've read and now can't fine the source that there are at least 40,000 Christian
denominations all reading the SAME BOOK!

Take your pick.
I do feel that there are some that follow Scripture pretty well.

Jehovah's Witnesses call their belief "The Truth" and preach that denomination
is the one and only true religion based on biblical scripture.
I think they have it nailed down pretty well but that's an opinion.
Almost all denominations of Christianity will claim to be the true path to God
and Heaven.
Personally I don't believe man was ever intended to pass away and if deemed
righteous float off someplace else.
Which Bible is most accurate?
That my friend will get arguments flying.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hello i am very interessed in Catholicism. I am an ex Shia Muslim and i find Catholicism very beautiful compared to the cold protestant worship.. (no offense) but my question is what makes Catholicism the right religion ?
As one who is not Catholic but am married to one who is and I attend mass with her regularly, I find it beautiful in terms of how devout Catholics tend to turn out. My experience is that usually they're less aggressive and tend to be more modest about their religious bent, thus less prone to radical tendencies and religious arrogance.

Also, the Catholic church can and does trace its ancestry back to the apostles as it was the church through apostolic succession and not the Bible that was the mark of the early church. Matter of fact, it was that church that chose what was going to be in the Bible in the 4th century.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Romanianseekingtruth said : Hello i am very interessed in Catholicism. I am an ex Shia Muslim and i find Catholicism very beautiful compared to the cold protestant worship.. (no offense) but my question is what makes Catholicism the right religion ?


Hi Romanianseekingtruth :

While the schism that became the Roman-Catholic church has never had historical claim to apostolic authority through Peter (Many historians sought for this important connection but have never been able to establish it) I do Agree with Metis that the Roman Congregation became an organization that achieved immense influence for western Christian movements, including the choice of it’s personal canon, which was then adopted either in whole or partly, in the west by multiple other Christian movements by the momentum of tradition.

I like the historical points made by two posters, one who correctly pointed out that the Roman Catholic Chuch was not always a merciful and good organization in specific points of doctrine and practice, while another poster pointed out that though the Roman Movement was part of “the Dark Ages”, it is still attempting to improve. These points remind us that other religious movements are also in a similar, slow, and difficult process of evolution in their doctrines and practices. The concept of Christian movements requiring time to “mature” doctrinally is interesting to consider.

Protestants and Restorationists and other Christian religionists are allowed the great advantage of hind-sight in putting together their base doctrines whereas those Older religious movements who have had to go through the very difficult and error prone process of actually going through the long process or working out theological maturation did (and are doing) a very, very, difficult thing.

IN this context of historical study, there are some important HISTORICAL (if not religious) advantages of a study of “OLD” systems of Christian theology (i.e. The Coptic or Eastern orthodox; the Roman movement; or ANY of the older Judeo-christian systems of belief).

After the Apostles and Prophets died, certain amounts of theological confusion regarding details of the Christian religion and it’s unanswered details remained. Without authority of the apostles and prophets who settled religious questions, what was one to teach in the face of a previously undescribed detail of doctrine? For example, Origen reminds us that in his day, the Christians did know whether God the Father had a body or not and so it had not been decided what they were to teach in this regard.

The various congregations were left to decide many such questions for themselves and as the different groups developed, their different answers to such questions with their differing theologies led to different Christian Movement developing different answers to the same theological questions just as new Movements nowadays have their own theologies and systematization of beliefs.

There was a time in the “earliest periods” of the Christian religious movement when a “proto-roman Catholicism” was also a very “young” Christian interpretation undergoing this same process of development as some protestants are now undergoing.

Many protestant Christian movements are still (historically) “young” Christian interpretational theories (i.e. in a relatively “young” stage of "maturation") compared to older theologies such as the Roman-type theology and the very old Coptic theologies and other equally old Christian movements.

The “older” Christian movements have had generations to develop and mature. They have had time to “think about” and work through and develop many doctrines which the “younger” interpretations have not yet worked out nor come to a consensus on what they are going to believe and teach as truth.

Another advantage of “older” theologies is that although older belief systems (such as the Romans or the Coptic or the remnants of any of the earliest Christian congregations) may not possess all of the original doctrines and traditions, but still, a few of their traditions and doctrines were created inside the milieu and worldview of the earlier centuries and thus many of their traditions seem to retain distinct remnants of many of the earliest Christian traditions.

In contrast, the Christian movements and their more modern interpretations that were developed in the more modern times were developed outside of that same milieu and worldview of the earlier centuries and some of them may not have ANY remnant of specific yet profoundly important early Judeo-Christian doctrines and early Judao-Christian traditions that formed much of the conceptual basis of early and authentic Judeo-Christian religion. For example, though the Catholic version of Purgatory as a “world of spirits” is not the same as the early Judeo-Christian textual version, still, they have a version that is a wonderful base doctrine while many of the younger Christian Movements seen among the several “protestant” Movements lack even a model for the base doctrine.

Some of the younger, or more “modern” Christian movement have poorer more nebulous concepts concerning early doctrines, and often, they simply lack certain early doctrines altogether. To the degree that they lack the logical framework and concepts that underlie the earliest and most authentic Judeo-Christian worldview, they are left with less logical, less fair, less authentic versions of the ancient Judeo-Christianity. For these ”younger” Christian movement, some of these early orthodox doctrines have become “heterodox” or frankly “heretical”. Thus, some of the early “truths” have become “error” and “error” has become “truth” (in certain Christian religious system of belief).

For me, this is part of the great value of a study of the early Christian religions such as the Coptic movement and Roman movement and other older, earlier versions of Judeo-Christianity. At least they have remnants of certain doctrines; debris from an earlier theology (as well as some of the very solid doctrines as well). It does not bother me at all that the RCC is evolving away from certain errors and toward certain reforms. In fact, I honor them for any such efforts they make to correct and improve their theological stance.

In any case, good luck in your spiritual journey Romanianseekingtruth

Clear
ειτζτζω
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
While the schism that became the Roman-Catholic church has never had historical claim to apostolic authority through Peter (Many historians sought for this important connection but have never been able to establish it)...

Actually there is because of the general line of succession, and I'm not referring to "popes". The organized church simply didn't disappear into thin air.

An excellent book, if you can find it, is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's Anglican, btw. It's worth its weight in gold because it's heavily documented, using mostly 2nd and 3rd century sources.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Clear said : " While the schism that became the Roman-Catholic church has never had historical claim to apostolic authority through Peter (Many historians sought for this important connection but have never been able to establish it)... "

Metis replied : " Actually there is because of the general line of succession, and I'm not referring to "popes". The organized church simply didn't disappear into thin air. An excellent book, if you can find it, is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's Anglican, btw. It's worth its weight in gold because it's heavily documented, using mostly 2nd and 3rd century sources. "


Hi Metis : My comment did not refer to the various Christian congregations "disappearing".

I was instead, referring to the specific attempted claim by the later Roman Catholic organisation to apostolic authority by claiming Peter was a Bishop of Rome who had given his own apostolic authority to the obscure Bishop of the Christian Congregation in Rome. My historical point is that the Roman congregation and the church that ultimately became the influential Roman Catholic Church, attempted, but never could establish this line of Authority. All claims were "back claimed" in later centuries as the desire arose to establish pre-eminence among the various congregations.

For example, there was never historical evidence that Peter was a standing Bishop of Rome nor that the apostle Peter gave apostolic authority to the Bishop of the Roman Congregation. Duschene and other Catholic historians spent their lives trying to make the apostolic connection, but were never able to do so. If the Anglican Hansen, has done so, he will be the first in history to have found and secured this historic connection. Please, if you believe Hansen has discovered what no other historian in history could find it would be good to have any new information on this specific historical point.

Clear
ειειειω
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Clear said : " While the schism that became the Roman-Catholic church has never had historical claim to apostolic authority through Peter (Many historians sought for this important connection but have never been able to establish it)... "

Metis replied : " Actually there is because of the general line of succession, and I'm not referring to "popes". The organized church simply didn't disappear into thin air. An excellent book, if you can find it, is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's Anglican, btw. It's worth its weight in gold because it's heavily documented, using mostly 2nd and 3rd century sources. "


Hi Metis : My comment did not refer to the various Christian congregations "disappearing".

I was instead, referring to the specific attempted claim by the later Roman Catholic organisation to apostolic authority by claiming Peter was a Bishop of Rome who had given his own apostolic authority to the obscure Bishop of the Christian Congregation in Rome. My historical point is that the Roman congregation and the church that ultimately became the influential Roman Catholic Church, attempted, but never could establish this line of Authority. All claims were "back claimed" in later centuries as the desire arose to establish pre-eminence among the various congregations.

For example, there was never historical evidence that Peter was a standing Bishop of Rome nor that the apostle Peter gave apostolic authority to the Bishop of the Roman Congregation. Duschene and other Catholic historians spent their lives trying to make the apostolic connection, but were never able to do so. If the Anglican Hansen, has done so, he will be the first in history to have found and secured this historic connection. Please, if you believe Hansen has discovered what no other historian in history could find it would be good to have any new information on this specific historical point.

Clear
ειειειω
Hello Clear, and thanks for your response.

First of all, the primacy of Peter as the spiritual leader of the Twelve is really quite clear as found in the N.T. We can get into that more if you desire, but I want to move on.

The early church recognized "the chair of Peter" as being the local church that was the one to refer to in areas of dispute and leadership, and this shows up at least somewhat clearly in 2nd century documents, including Ignatius' letter to Clement. Rome was the place where Peter and Paul were martyred, so it had a special designation.

Was Peter "Bishop of Rome"? The title of "bishop" comes from the Greek word "episcopos", and it means "overseer" (other labels also can be used). Since we do not have records of exactly what Peter may or may not have done in Rome, it's pretty hard to put that label on him, but I don't think anyone seriously doubts that he probably was still the spiritual leader of the church-- why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else? Certainly the 2nd century church thought he was special, so that's about as close as we can get.

But the above point is really moot in that the church saw itself as "one body", to use Paul's words, and not a myriad of independent churches. However, time and distance made keeping this cohesion to be very challenging, to say the least.

Because the issue of apostolic succession was regarded as the litmus test of leadership in the early church, this approach needed a head of sorts, especially when "heresies" began to sprout up. For example, which letters were to be used as "scripture"? Which leaders are valid versus those who may teach "heresies"? Without an organizational head, which we do know existed in the 2nd century and beyond, what became known as the "Christian church" would have been torn apart like dropping a bowling ball on a glass plate. Fragmented, it may not have survived because no cohesion would be left.

This arrangement of appointees eventually became even more formalized as time went on, and also more institutionalize starting in the 4th century under Constantine. It was under his leadership that the church expanded, selected the canon, and eventually became to dominate in much of Europe. However, this is certainly not to say that this was all "good", btw.

As far as the "apostolic succession" is concerned, let me remind you that part of our problem is so few records exist coming out of the early 2nd century, and what we do now have typically refers to a multitude of topics. In order to make the connection, we need to use what scant material is available and then use logic to try and reason it all out. But what we all know that "apostolic succession" tended to get strongly downplayed during and after the Protestant Reformation outside of the Catholic, Anglican, Coptic, and Orthodox churches, and for rather obvious reasons.

BTW, just for the record, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church but am no longer affiliated with any church (you might look at my signature statement at the bottom of this page).
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

Metis replied : “First of all, the primacy of Peter as the spiritual leader of the Twelve is really quite clear as found in the N.T.”

The historical problem for the Roman Catholic Church was NOT the claim that Peter had Authority, but their claim that Peter gave THEM, his apostolic authority. I had thought you were going to offer new Data from Hansens book, but what you have, so far, offered, is a description of traditions that do not solve the historical problem.

Historically, no pope of the Roman Christian movement ever received the apostle Peter’s authority and thus, the Roman Congregation was left in the same situation as all other early congregations; with a void of higher authority they could not fill with authentic authority (thus the motive was to fill the lack of authentic authority with something else as Tertulian pointed out).

I do not think the first Bishop of Rome (Linus, ), nor his successors Anacletus nor Clement were at all bad people, but instead I believe these early Bishops were very good individuals who were trying to do the best they could in the state of confusion and lack of authority after Jesus and the Prophets and the Apostles all died off. I do NOT think Linus, Anacletus nor Clement would have inaugurated the multiple false claims to having been given authority from Peter, but instead, such myths were instituted in the years when Rome began vying for political and religious pre-imminence over other cities and congregations.

The problem for Roman Catholic Historians has not been to show that Peter was given authority, but rather, they cannot show that Peter gave that authority to any of their bishops. Catholic historians have tried to find THAT important connection for 1600 years and THAT is the connection that has never been made from the earliest texts, but instead came as a “back claim” from later centuries. The great Catholic historian Duchesne, dedicated his professional life to finding that historical connection; he had access to vatican archives and records that the rest of us can only dream of seeing; and yet he never found it. I have even wondered if Duchene was hoping to be the first historian in history to make the connection since it would have made him incredibly famous.

Early efforts to forge this link were counterproductive and disastrous (historically) . For example, the pseudo-clementine letters very clearly have Peter, giving Clement all sorts of power (I will describe these in greater detail as we move into this history). However, such letters were very quickly discovered to be counterfeits and resulted in embarrassment and undercut the claim to authority rather than enhancing the claim. However, such attempts to “create history” and influence historical opinion demonstrate the importance such a claim started to have as infighting and competition came to eventually characterize the various religious movements.



Metis said : “Was Peter "Bishop of Rome"? …. Since we do not have records of exactly what Peter may or may not have done in Rome, it's pretty hard to put that label on him, but I don't think anyone seriously doubts that he probably was still the spiritual leader of the church-- why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else? “

Records are at the crux of the Catholic dilemma, There are no records that show Peter was ever a standing Bishop and there are many that demonstrate he was not the standing Bishop of Rome.

A) REGARDING THE IMMPORTANCE OF LACK OF ANY EARLY SUPPORTING RECORDS FOR PETER AS A STANDING BISHOP OF THE ROMAN CONGREGATION.

The lack of supporting records of the period in question and the presence of other records from the earliest periods which undermine this premise has been the problem. The Patrologiae Graeca dedicates TWO ENTIRE VOLUMES to Clement, who was a Bishop over the Roman Congregation at most for only 10 years (and no one regarded Clement as important as Peter), yet when one turns to the earliest written traditions for Rome, the records speak of Clement and are silent on Peter.

If Peter stayed in Rome for the 20 years after leaving Palestine, ESPECIALLY if he actually became Bishop of Rome, then there should be a great deal of textual records as there are for Clement. Where are even remnants or debris of Peter’s sermons, his miracles, his conversations, his administrative acts as a Standing Bishop of the Roman congregation? The Clementine records write a great deal regarding personal daily interactions with Peter when Peter is in Palestine. But, upon leaving Palestine, even Clement loses sight of Peter and writes nothing of what happened to him. If Peter DID serve as a standing Bishop of the Roman congregation, then the silence and void is even more astounding.

A) If Peter HAD BEEN a sitting Bishop in Rome and head of the church, then he would have written MORE than only his short epistles (if he was their writer…).
It is inconceivable that a “bishop” Peter would NOT have written something during the more than two decades it is claimed that he was Bishop. Remember, Peter does NOT have to write with his own hand, but need simply employ a few secretaries. Origen and Augustine kept several secretaries very busy taking their dictation in their prodigious production of texts. Paul doesn’t write his text, but leaves it to another to write. Also, as administrative support increases, the ease with which texts are generated increases, ease of transmission increases; ease of stationary storage increases; ease of distribution increases; and the ease and amount of copying improves.

B) During this time period, the Christian churches are experiencing amazing growth (which requires guidance and administration to a greater degree than churches in a “steady state). It is inconceivable that Peter would not have provided this guidance and administration, much of it in the form of written text. If he was a bishop, I do not believe he would have written LESS than as an apostle-missionary, but he would probably have written MORE as administrative duties requiring textual communications grew (though the nature of and content of the texts would have been somewhat different).

C) The Apostle Peter would have continued to give many types of textual testimonies of Jesus to many groups in many contexts over a 20 year period and I believe that such texts would have been copied and distributed just as other sacred christian texts were copied and distributed widely.

D) There was continuing concern with growing apostasy and heresies and conflicting doctrines as the Christian movement took root among differing culture and countries and Peter, if he had been acting as a “general Bishop” would have continued to send textual letters (epistles) out to attempt to deal with such issues. The Galatians were not the only ones who were “soon removed” from the original teachings of the Apostles. Peter would have offered guidance and admonishment as other Bishops did (clement, ignatius, etc).

E) Much of this guidance would have been Doctrinal guidance in a textual form as Peter encouraged corrections to competing doctrines and questions that arise concerning the gospel.

F) Peter would have had at least a few public debates or at least public "disagreements" from detractors, such as his extraordinary debate with Simon Magnus, which were immortalized in the Clementine recognitions. Clement wrote of these early debates Peter had, others would have written about continuing debates in Rome had Peter been there as their standing Bishop.

G) Any Petrine administration in Rome would have generated textual records associated with mundane administrative affairs; the buying of supplies and food and records relating to the distribution of welfare. Such is the nature of the majority of the earliest hierarchal records of egypt from thousands of years previous. Some of these should be extant.

H) The continuing miracles which were to follow “those that believe” would have continued in Peter and many of them would have been textually documented and immortalized had he been in one place over a period of 20 years. Healing and miracles he continually wrought would have been written about by both the Christians and the non-christians in a community in which Peter lived for 20 years.

I) Textual records associated with other organizational and administrative tasks within a growing christendom itself, records of those who were directly ordained and sent by the Peter as a “bishop” to a certain task would have existed, (Certainly many more ordinations than Peters’ single ordination Clement alone)

J) At least some texts a hypothetical Petrine Bishopric sent out to different countries and congregations would not have been highly valued and retained.

It is very unlikely that all copies of all such documents created over 20 years as a Bishop of a rapidly enlargening religious movement in all places they were sent in all cities of an enlargening Religious movement would have undergone destruction.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

THE DEPTH OF HISTORICAL INCONCEIVABLENESS DEEPENS WITH ADDITIONAL SOURCES OF TEXTUAL EVIDENCE WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND.

For example, it is NOT just PETER’S “writings” that we should find evidence of, but there should be writings generated ABOUT Peter the Bishop by others. For example:

A) The ROMAN’S themselves, in their administrative duties, would have written ABOUT Peter as a Bishop and mention something about their interactions and knowledge of him as a Bishop of the Christian Church there. What are the chances, given the record keeping ability of the Roman government, that THEY would have lost all such records concerning Peter as well as all church records be lost in all parts of the world where such records would have been sent?

B) The ENEMIES of Christianity would have written about Peter and the Christians just as others (such as Celsus) had done. for years. For example: Why would the ongoing Jewish and Pagan leaders who continued complaining about “the Christians” have no records of Peter?

C) What are the chances that none of the historians, “small or large”, altogether avoided writing about Peter as the head of the Roman Church. It is inconceivable to me that some historian, either small or great, living near the time of Peter, a “bishop of Rome” would not have written about him. Josephus, who returned to live in Rome doesn’t mention Peter as Bishop of Rome, Tacitus doesn’t, Suetonius' knew vespacian and he even he had access to the imperial archives (which presumably would have SOMETHING about Peter in them), yet his series of biographies (“Illustrious Men”) doesn’t mention Peter (though it included poets and orators), If Plutarch mentioned Peter as Bishop, this part of his textual history did not survive. Did Peter, as a bishop, not rate enough importance for ANY historian? If he DID rate, then were ALL such records destroyed?

D) At least ONE of the members of the Roman congregation would have written about Peter in a personal diary or a secular text that at least MENTIONED a famous "Bishop" Peter. For example, we know so much about what early Christianity taught and was like, even about the early martyrdoms through the diary of Perpetua. She writes about her Bishop Optatus (who is certainly NOT a famous person). Why would no other members of the church in rome or in any other place, congregation or locale, discuss Peter as their bishop in some extant diary entry or letter? Many, many personal experiences should have and would have been written by many literate individuals who would have access and dealings with Peter as a standing bishop.

I think I’ve oversimplified this description as it is even more complicated than this, but it introduces other historical issues that one must consider besides the simple issue of whether Peter himself wrote or did not write texts. It introduces some context as to why very prominent scholars would teach that Peter was never the Bishop of Rome for 20 years as Catholic tradition suggests.


C) THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT DID NOT RECEIVE NOR HAVE APOSTOLIC LEVEL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY

The Roman Movement’s motive in claiming to having the authority of Peter were simple

There were many early Christian congregations in Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, etc. In the centuries after the Apostles died. The Roman Religious movement historically, tried to distinguish themselves from other fellow schizmatics on the basis of at least two claims. They repeatedly claimed to have greater RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY and they claimed to have ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS.

These claims make things VERY simple historically.

IF the Roman congregation actually DID and DOES have authentic religious authority from God and actually DOES teach the authentic and original Christian traditions, then all other Christians not having authority from God and not possessing “original Christian traditions” should repent and turn toward roman catholic theology (as some other congregations did).

IF the derivatives from the Roman congregation DO NOT have authentic religious authority and DO NOT teach the authentic and original Christian traditions nowadays in any greater degree than any other of the various christianities, THEN claims based on special authority and original traditions are rendered moot (though OTHER claims may be valid) and we should look ELSEWHERE for religious authority and authentic christian theology (if those characteristics are what we are looking for...)

I have to stop here but will comment on your other points later, when I have a moment. I hope it makes sense to you that the historical data does not support Peter as a standing Bishop and what this lack of data means, historically. When I get a bit of time, I’d like to make a couple of points regarding your other statements, starting with “ “I don't think anyone seriously doubts that he probably was still the spiritual leader of the church-- why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else? “” (Metis Post #8). Historically, this is exactly what the Roman Congregation of later centuries attempted to do. They wanted to replace the dead apostle with another spiritual leader of Peter’s stature, with Peter’s authority at the head of their congregation. It is a replacement for Peter, including the mythos and stature of the great apostle.


Gotta go for now. I hope your spiritual journey is satisfying Metis. Please understand that I respect the Catholic Church. I think the versions of Christianity that came out of the earlier periods can give us a lot of historical insight and understanding.


Clear
εισισιω
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
POST TWO OF TWO

THE DEPTH OF HISTORICAL INCONCEIVABLENESS DEEPENS WITH ADDITIONAL SOURCES OF TEXTUAL EVIDENCE WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND.

For example, it is NOT just PETER’S “writings” that we should find evidence of, but there should be writings generated ABOUT Peter the Bishop by others. For example:

A) The ROMAN’S themselves, in their administrative duties, would have written ABOUT Peter as a Bishop and mention something about their interactions and knowledge of him as a Bishop of the Christian Church there. What are the chances, given the record keeping ability of the Roman government, that THEY would have lost all such records concerning Peter as well as all church records be lost in all parts of the world where such records would have been sent?

B) The ENEMIES of Christianity would have written about Peter and the Christians just as others (such as Celsus) had done. for years. For example: Why would the ongoing Jewish and Pagan leaders who continued complaining about “the Christians” have no records of Peter?

C) What are the chances that none of the historians, “small or large”, altogether avoided writing about Peter as the head of the Roman Church. It is inconceivable to me that some historian, either small or great, living near the time of Peter, a “bishop of Rome” would not have written about him. Josephus, who returned to live in Rome doesn’t mention Peter as Bishop of Rome, Tacitus doesn’t, Suetonius' knew vespacian and he even he had access to the imperial archives (which presumably would have SOMETHING about Peter in them), yet his series of biographies (“Illustrious Men”) doesn’t mention Peter (though it included poets and orators), If Plutarch mentioned Peter as Bishop, this part of his textual history did not survive. Did Peter, as a bishop, not rate enough importance for ANY historian? If he DID rate, then were ALL such records destroyed?

D) At least ONE of the members of the Roman congregation would have written about Peter in a personal diary or a secular text that at least MENTIONED a famous "Bishop" Peter. For example, we know so much about what early Christianity taught and was like, even about the early martyrdoms through the diary of Perpetua. She writes about her Bishop Optatus (who is certainly NOT a famous person). Why would no other members of the church in rome or in any other place, congregation or locale, discuss Peter as their bishop in some extant diary entry or letter? Many, many personal experiences should have and would have been written by many literate individuals who would have access and dealings with Peter as a standing bishop.

I think I’ve oversimplified this description as it is even more complicated than this, but it introduces other historical issues that one must consider besides the simple issue of whether Peter himself wrote or did not write texts. It introduces some context as to why very prominent scholars would teach that Peter was never the Bishop of Rome for 20 years as Catholic tradition suggests.


C) THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT DID NOT RECEIVE NOR HAVE APOSTOLIC LEVEL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY

The Roman Movement’s motive in claiming to having the authority of Peter were simple

There were many early Christian congregations in Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, etc. In the centuries after the Apostles died. The Roman Religious movement historically, tried to distinguish themselves from other fellow schizmatics on the basis of at least two claims. They repeatedly claimed to have greater RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY and they claimed to have ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS.

These claims make things VERY simple historically.

IF the Roman congregation actually DID and DOES have authentic religious authority from God and actually DOES teach the authentic and original Christian traditions, then all other Christians not having authority from God and not possessing “original Christian traditions” should repent and turn toward roman catholic theology (as some other congregations did).

IF the derivatives from the Roman congregation DO NOT have authentic religious authority and DO NOT teach the authentic and original Christian traditions nowadays in any greater degree than any other of the various christianities, THEN claims based on special authority and original traditions are rendered moot (though OTHER claims may be valid) and we should look ELSEWHERE for religious authority and authentic christian theology (if those characteristics are what we are looking for...)

I have to stop here but will comment on your other points later, when I have a moment. I hope it makes sense to you that the historical data does not support Peter as a standing Bishop and what this lack of data means, historically. When I get a bit of time, I’d like to make a couple of points regarding your other statements, starting with “ “I don't think anyone seriously doubts that he probably was still the spiritual leader of the church-- why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else? “” (Metis Post #8). Historically, this is exactly what the Roman Congregation of later centuries attempted to do. They wanted to replace the dead apostle with another spiritual leader of Peter’s stature, with Peter’s authority at the head of their congregation. It is a replacement for Peter, including the mythos and stature of the great apostle.


Gotta go for now. I hope your spiritual journey is satisfying Metis. Please understand that I respect the Catholic Church. I think the versions of Christianity that came out of the earlier periods can give us a lot of historical insight and understanding.


Clear
εισισω
Cutting and pasting the above from a clearly bias source doesn't impress me, nor would it impress any serious theologian. Nor does it even stand to basic logic as a fragmented church would not have likely survived, plus why would the Thomasine Church in India and most of the Uniate churches reunite with Rome or with the Orthodox Church if they thought for one minute that a hodge-podge of unaffiliated churches is what emerged in the 2nd century later? That literally would make them fools.

When one gets into the 2nd century writings of the patriarchs, it becomes very clear that the church sees itself as being organized, and congregations outside of this were labeled "heretical", with the exception of those so far out in the diasporah that there was no contact. I've read a great many of those letters, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind, nor in the mind of even some Protestant theologians that I have had discussions with, that the church saw itself as "one body" under a informal leadership from Rome, which became more formal especially starting in the 4th century.

I know most fundamentalist Protestants don't like that, but the truth is the truth. And if there was any doubt that this is the truth, then take a look at your Bible and ask yourself who chose the canon? Did it come from the hodge-podge of different churches using just their own selections, or did it come from one organized source? I'm pretty sure you know the answer to that.

Take care.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Metis :

Posts #9 and #10 are my own thoughts and my own writing (though I did cut and past from my own prior posts when I had a similar historical conversation with another person). My hope is that the principles are logical and understandable from a historical standpoint, and not biased.

Remember our discussion regards whether Peter was a Standing Bishop of the Roman Congregation and whether he gave his apostolic authority to an obscure bishop of the Roman Congregation (who passed it on).


I could not find anything in your post # 11 that was relevant to this point so I will continue discussing why, historically, Peter was never the first Standing Bishop of Rome and that he never, historically, gave his apostolic Authority to an obscure and relatively unknown bishop of the local Roman Congregation.

Metis said : I don't think anyone seriously doubts that he probably was still the spiritual leader of the church-- why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else? Certainly the 2nd century church thought he was special, so that's about as close as we can get. (Post #8)

Regarding the myth of Peter having been the “first bishop of rome”. It is widespread, and powerful, and completely false. Even I, growing up in a protestant church, had simply heard all of my life that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome (and I repeated this mythic lore just as the catholics did…) It wasn’t until I was a young adult that it ever even occurred to me to consider whether this was, in fact, true. I have simply assumed that this is the situation most Catholics grow up with, that is, they have heard such things over and over and thus, simply grow up assuming these things to be historically accurate.

Having discussed the fact that there is no early documentation that Peter was ever the first Standing Bishop of Rome, we can start to consider the early Data that demonstrates he was NOT the Standing Bishop of the Roman Congregation.


Historically, Linus was the first Bishop of the Roman congregation
:

Eusebius
, in his history of the Christian religion tells us that Linus, NOT peter, was the first Bishop to the Roman congregation, then Anacletus, third Clemens, fourth Evaristus.

Anastasius' also confirms that Linus was the first Bishop of the Roman congregation, then 2. Cletus; 3. Clemens; 4. Anacletus; 5. Evarestus.

The Liberian Catalogues also confirm that Linus was the first Bishop of the Roman Congregation, then Clemens; 3. Cletus; 4. Anacletus; 5. Evarestus.

Eusebius tells us that after Paul and Peter were martyred, "Linus was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome." (eusebius of caesaria - eclesiatical hx). This specific quote comes from chapter two entitled "The first ruler of the Church of Rome". Eusebius repeats this same claim in chapter thirteen which is entitiled "Anacletus, the second Bishop of Rome".

Perhaps it is important to discuss historical context of the inconsistencies as well. For example, "The book of Pontiffs" claims Cletus follows Clement whereas the liberian catalog reverses this order. While Linus is first Standing Bishop of the Roman congregation, there are some conflicts in other parts of the data sets. In liber Pontificalis, peter suffers martyrdom "in the 38th year after the Lord suffered (68 c.e.) And Linus "was bishop in the time of Nero from the consulship of Saturninus and scipio (56 c.e.)

To that of Capito and Rufus (67.c.e.) Linus was bishop of Rome for 11 years from 56 c.e and it was by amazing historical coincidence that paul arrives in Rome (under house arrest) at this approximate time. Though Bishop Irenaeus indicates that both "the blessed apostles, St. Peter, and St. Paul, upon founding and erecting the church at Rome committed the office of administering the church at Rome to Linus", it may be that it was Paul alone who was responsible for Linus ordination (we simply don't know if one or both ordained Linus). The 11 years attributed to Linus makes complete sense if he held office from that time until just before Peter was martyred in 68 c.e. since this time table allows Peter to ordain Clement (since Bishops did not ordain bishops in original christianity, but rather one in a higher rank would ordain the lower rank of bishop). Clement succeeding Linus as the first real bishop is in agreement with the testimony of the Apostolic constitutions and it's list of who were the first bishops of various cities in the first century.

"Now concerning those bishops which have been ordained in our lifetime, we let you know that they are these : - James the bishop of Jerusalem, the brother of our Lord; upon whose death the second was simeon the son of Cleopas; after whom the third was Judas the son of James. Of Caesarea of Palestine, the first was Zacchaeus, who was once a publican; after whom was Cornelius, and the third Theophilus. Of Antioch, Euodius, ordained by me Peter; and Ignatius by Paul. Of alexandria, Annianus was the first, ordained by Mark the evangelist; the second Avilius by Luke, who was also an evangelist. Of the church of Rome, Linus the son of Claudia was the first, ordained by Paul; and Clemens, after Linus' death, the second, ordained by me Peter" (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 4:46 [ANF 7:477-8]).

The lists placing Linus as first Bishop ordained by Paul (and not by Peter), followed by the second bishop of Rome, Clement (ordained by Peter) reflects the earliest tradition and may be preferred over the conflicting traditions. As I say, the history becomes a bit murky.

It is suspected that it is Irenaeus' text that first makes famous the later claim that Linus and Cletus followed the dead Peter while other texts claim Peter was alive and, in fact, ordained Clement, the third in line. It is, obviously, inconsistent with History to claim Linus received the bishopric upon the death of Peter when Peter ordained another bishop years after Linus and Cletus served as bishops.

Not only do Eusebius, Anastasius and the Liberian Catalogs list Linus as the first Bishop of rome, but Irenaeus tells us that BOTH Peter and Paul were involved in founding the Roman congregation and that Linus was their first Bishop. The early Apostolic constitutions tell us it was Paul who Ordained Linus and not Peter. (ANF 7:477-8)

Whether it is Paul who ordained Linus, or if it was Peter who ordained Linus, Still, All of these early witnesses consistently agree that Linus was the first bishop of the Christian congregation in Rome and thus the Apostle Peter was never a standing bishop of Rome. The later tradition that was started regarding the apostle Peter serving as a standing bishop of a single congregation was a "back claim" made in later years as the roman congregation sought justification for pre-eminence over other congregations. So, while the early Christians did feel they were part of the same body, the infighting that started after the apostles and prophets died of was for who was going to be the “head” of the Body. The infighting of the next few centuries was not characterized by Christian principles, but by political and financial and power motives. The Roman Congregation that existed before the squabbling was a different organization than the one that emerged from these political and financial and battles for power that characterized the later centuries.

In your original quote, you asked : "...why would they abandon him or replace him with someone else?." (Post #8) Perhaps I can continue in my next post regarding the reasons it was important that the Roman Congregation place another of it's leaders in the place of the Dead Apostle. Right now I've got to get back to work.

Metis, please understand that I do not harber animosity against the Catholic Church. I think it's adherants are as much Christian as anyone else and many of it's adherants are quite deserving of honor and emulation of all other Christians. My belief is that the current Pope is an excellent and honorable person; the very type I can image would inhabit heaven.

However, the specific relevant points we are discussing is simply whether Peter was a Standing Bishop who gave his apostolic authority to the standing Bishop of the Roman Congregation before Peter's Death.


Clear
τωειδρω
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Remember our discussion regards whether Peter was a Standing Bishop of the Roman Congregation and whether he gave his apostolic authority to an obscure bishop of the Roman Congregation (who passed it on).
Actually it wasn't. The issue dealt with the authority of the church, and I mentioned that Peter's leadership was more spiritual, not administrative (that was James' primary role), and this was based on his reputation. In every listing of the apostles that includes him, he is mentioned first, if my memory is correct, and sometimes it just says "Peter and the others...". And who did Paul confront with some questions and suggestions? Peter.

One simply does not even have to acknowledge Peter in any way to understand that the church taught with authority, and this even shows up clearly in Acts and the epistles. Even if Peter had never existed, the authority was still there, and that we know for a fact.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1) Metis said : " The issue dealt with the authority of the church, and I mentioned that Peter's leadership was more spiritual, not administrative (that was James' primary role), and this was based on his reputation. In every listing of the apostles that includes him, he is mentioned first, if my memory is correct, and sometimes it just says "Peter and the others...". And who did Paul confront with some questions and suggestions? Peter. " (post # 13)
We agree that Peter had special authority (whether “spiritual” and/or “administrative”) but, historically, Peter never transferred his specific apostolic authority to the Bishop of the Roman Congregation. The Catholic Claim, according to the dogmatic canons and decrees 246, ft nt. 6, was that “...the Roman Pontiff is the successor of Peter,...”, and "...full power was given to him...by Jesus Christ.

This historicity of this central, historical, profound important claim to Apostolic authority, is the central historical issue I have been speaking to. Historically, the Roman Congregation never had any more authority than any other congregation in the period after the apostles and prophets died (since they were not given more authority by Peter than any other congregation).

If you think there is a more profound or important Catholic claim to authority than this one, and therefore, want to stop talking of the Catholic Claim to Petrine Authority, you can introduce a more important source for exclusive Roman Authority.



2) Metis said : "One simply does not even have to acknowledge Peter in any way to understand that the church taught with authority, and this even shows up clearly in Acts and the epistles." (Post #13)
The New Testament text is referring to original Church congregations, while the Roman Movement of later centuries was NOT the same Christian Movement having the same characteristics as the original εκκλνσια/Church of Jesus' or Peters' time. For examples :

The Original εκκλνσια/Church/Assembly, DID have apostolic authority, whereas the later Roman Christian Movement’s organization did NOT have the specific apostolic authority it claimed to have.

The base Characteristics of the Original εκκηεσια/Church and it's Christian movement, had different goals in many ways; and the goals and methods of accomplishing those goals were substantially different than the later Roman Christian Movement.

The Original church’s administration was different than the administration of the later Roman Christian Movements administration in many fundamental ways.

The Original church of Jesus Christ had different organization and distinction of Bishops versus Apostles than the Roman Christian Movement adopted.

The Original Church of Jesus Christ had a different mindset and posture towards worldly power and money than did the later Roman Christian Movement. That is, the goals sought for were different and the manner of achieving those goals were different.

The Original εκκληεσια’s doctrines originating from apostles and prophets were different than the later theologian derived doctrines of the Roman Religious movement.

The εκκλησια/Assembly of the original Christian Movement established at the time of Jesus’ ministry was not the same organized εκκλησια that came out of the Roman Movement in later centuries.

You are speaking of an original Christian Movement versus a Christian movement that became contaminated with power and money and political attainment. These are not the same Churches.



3) Metis said : " Even if Peter had never existed, the authority was still there, and that we know for a fact." (Post # 13)
If you are referring to apostolic authority, we can agree. If you are referring to the later Roman Christian movement having Peter's apostolic authority, that is inconsistent with historical reality.

Clear
τωδρφιω
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This historicity of this central, historical, profound important claim to Apostolic authority, is the central historical issue I have been speaking to. Historically, the Roman Congregation never had any more authority than any other congregation in the period after the apostles and prophets died (since they were not given more authority by Peter than any other congregation).
That simply is not true, and the only solution to your error is to begin to read the writings of the patriarchs during the 2nd century, who were writing from different local churches, btw. And common sense should tell you alone that you simply cannot be correct as the church would have splintered into smithereens, each with their own customs and scriptures, never to be put back together again.

Please, for your sake, do the research instead of blindly following what your denomination is telling you. I did, and I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I had grown up in when I realized I was being fed a false history of early Christianity, plus some other falsehoods as well. If you want a decent Protestant source, read "The First Christians" by Martin Marty (Lutheran), for one example. What do you have to lose but a bit of time?

Anyhow, with that I'm moving on, but if you actually do the research, come back and let me know where this is going to likely lead you? It's gonna be a trip, let me tell ya as one who took it almost 50 years ago and never looked back. Just try and keep an open mind.

Take care.
 

Clear

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Premium Member
POST ONE OF FIVE

Clear said : The Catholic Claim, according to the dogmatic canons and decrees 246, ft nt. 6, was that “...the Roman Pontiff is the successor of Peter,...”, and "...full power was given to him...by Jesus Christ.” This historicity of this central, historical, profound important claim to Apostolic authority, is the central historical issue I have been speaking to. Historically, the Roman Congregation never had any more authority than any other congregation in the period after the apostles and prophets died (since they were not given more authority by Peter than any other congregation)….. the Roman Movement of later centuries was NOT the same Christian Movement having the same characteristics as the original εκκλνσια/Church of Jesus' or Peters' time. For examples : (post # 14)

Metis said : That simply is not true, and the only solution to your error is to begin to read the writings of the patriarchs during the 2nd century,... (post # 15)

O.K. Lets look at the later records :

1) Consider the complete lack of early textual support and the many forgeries and attempts to create history in the next century

The later documents only make your historical position worse. As demonstrated, the earliest periods are devoid of ANY textual witness of Peter as a standing bishop or any transfer of Apostolic Authority to an obscure bishop of the roman congregation. The next period demonstrates multiple textual forgeries and similar dishonest attempts to support a roman claim to supremacy.


WHEN JERUSALEM AND ANTIOCH HAD PRE-EMINENCE AND ROME WANTED PRE-IMMINENCE

As we leave the early period of relative calm and enter the age of competition, Rome sought to become the dominant doctrinal worldview and the most powerful proselyting organization just as forum members desire to promote their own worldviews.

In context of AUTHORITY, the early Roman congregation felt the need to demonstrate superior ecclesiastical authority which they did not, in fact, have. The pressure to “create the fascade” of authority mounted until patriots of the roman congregation began manipulating textual history to this end.

1) Existing texts were changed to benefit and support the roman claims to pre-eminence.
For example : Hegesippus, quoted by Eusebius in Historia Ecclesiastica 2.23, says, “The brother of the Lord, James, took over the church along with [μετα + genitive] the apostles.” (PG 20:197) Yet Jerome translates this passage : “suscepit ecclesiam Hierosolymorum post [μετα + accusative] apostolos frater Domini Jacobus” –(Jerome De Viris Illustrtibus 2, in PL 23:639) p 32 – which translation changes James position, making him appear to be a successor to the apostles, (whom he did not succeed at all). Yet such corruption of history was necessary if they were to establish an apostolic succession through bishops.

For example : The text of “The Gospel of the twelve apostles” has Christ ordain Peter an “archbishop” though such an office did not exist until it was created centuries later. (Gospel of the 12 apostles, in PO 2:147) Yet, such manipulations and counterfeiting was necessary if one was to create a historical basis to justify the roman claim over the other congregations.


2) NEW texts were created to support the emerging Roman Claims to pre-eminence.
For example : According to the apostolic constitutions, when the church was being formally organized, a fictitious Peter suggested first of all ordaining a bishop in the presence of all the apostles, including Paul and James, bishop of Jerusalem – pouring all their united authority into one vessel, and then doing homage to him!. (Constitutiones Aposolicae 8.4-5, in PG 1:1069-76);

Multiple examples are found in the Several pseudo-letters of "Clement" containing counterfeit history foisted on the other Christians. There are several versions of spurious letters supposedly written by the third bishop of Rome (Clement). In one fictional account Peter says of Clement : “I transmit to him [Clement] the power to bind and loose, etc.” (epitome de Gestis Sancti Petri 145; in PG 2:577).

Before this statement, the fictious Peter had always reserved these powers to himself. Yet the record tells us that “Linus” and “Cletus” already “sat on the great throne of Rome” BEFORE the fictitious Peter gives this power to Clement. Since neither Linus, nor Cletus had that authority, then the Peter's presidency of the church is something quite apart from the bishopric of Rome.

In each of the several versions of this letter, the fictitious Peter makes Clement promise that … when I die you write a letter to James, the Lords brother, telling him how close you have been to me…Let James be assured that after my death the seat will be occupied by a man not uninstructed in nor ignorant of the doctrines and the canons of the church.” (ibid) as a justification for Peter not having simply dictated a letter to the other apostles, telling them that they, as apostles and prophets, now answered to a simple bishop (who was neither an apostle, nor a prophet).

Even these letters use the designation for James as “the ruler of the Holy church of Christians in Jerusalem AND of the churches…everywhere.” (ibid). The contradictions are rife in these counterfeits, such that they were discarded as legitimate history very quickly. Instead of enhancing the claim to authority, they became an embarrassment as they revealed machinations that would not have occurred in the early Christian movement.

This story of bishop Clement duplicates the earlier (and better authenticated) story written by the same Clement of how Peter had already ordained Zaccaeus bishop of Caesaria. (homiliae Clementinae 3:60-72; in PG 2:149-57). The historian Carl Schmidt concluded that “the homilist created this section [homilae Clementinae 3.59-62] independently in order to fill in an emerging void caused by the loss of the original, disputed material.

In that account, Peter had already ordained Zaccaeus as the bishop of Caesarea (1); Zaccaeus had already mounted the throne of Peter (2); Zaccaeus had already been hailed by Peter as vicar of Christ (3) and Zaccaeus had already sat on the throne of Christ (4), which is, according to Peter, analogous to the judgment seat of Moses BEFORE Clement underwent the same process.

Though such letters do not represent authentic history, still, such attempts to create counterfeit history DO tell us much about the motives and methods of the Roman movement as well as its’ deep desire to gain pre-imminence by multiple means that would Not have been acceptable to the original Christian Church..

In saying all of these things, no one need suppose that I am saying that the roman motives were simply evil in attempting pre-eminence by such devices. I think the Romans wanted pre-eminence and power and influence just as we all want our personal theologies to gain pre-eminence and to be influential. I’m not saying that by doing these things, the Romans were trying to do evil things, I do not believe that, but I am simply that they are not historically correct claims.

However, as this congregation became tainted by it’s greed for political power and money and pre-eminence, it took on another set of characteristics that was different than a congregation that characterized the original church of Jesus Christ. If we simply look at the evolution of the original humble local Bishop into the power-wielding politician that characterized the later periods of the Roman Congregation, one can see how the Roman movement adopted characteristics that were entirely different than the original Church of Jesus Christ.


POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS

 
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Clear

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Premium Member
POST TWO OF FIVE


2) THE EVOLUTION OF AND DECLINE OF THE ROMAN MOVEMENTS OFFICE OF BISHOP

THE RISE OF INEQUALITY AMONG BISHOPS

Even by the time of Nicea, this principle of Bishops being a group of “equals” had been abandoned. The great and telling concluding speech of the great Council of Nicaea was an appeal by the emperor to the bishops to remember the principle that they had already started to abandon : that “the decision of which bishop is really superior to another must rest with God. You must yield gracefully to each other,” says Constantine, “and so avoid all this terrible dissension.”

The emperor’s imperial advice was not enough to halt their moral decline and thus, soon afterwards, he again wrote in a general epistle another rebuke repeating his demand that they return to this principle, saying “According to God’s law, bishops must be equal” But the irony was that BECAUSE bishops were equal, they could not solve the question of leadership after the prophets and apostles died, since any disputes could be settled by the Apostles.

To settle differences among the various provinces,” Eusebius tells us that the emperor himself, “acting as a common bishop appointed by God, he [the emperor] would summon synods of the ministers of God It was the emperor who was acting as a bishop. He continues : “He [the emperor] did not disdain to sit in the midst of such assemblies ,” eusebius continues, “ … He sat in their midst as one of their number, entirely without armed retainers.”;

The history of the inexorable decline (generally, not individually) of the Roman Movements office of Bishop, did not begin with oppression and corruption with political power and riches, but rather the relative equality of the early office of Christian bishop began to be replaced by inequality based on non-religious qualities. For example, this principle became establish established that “the bishop in the metropolis has charge of the entire province because all those who have any business come together from all directions in the metropolis; therefore, it was decided that he should accordingly be afforded a superior honor and that the other bishops should undertake nothing further without him.. .” (Council of Antioch, Canon 9, in Hefele, Histoire des Counciles d’Apres led Documents Originaux, 1:717)




THE GRADUAL CHANGE IN HOW A BISHOP WAS CHOSEN AND WHO WAS CHOSEN AS A BISHOP

The early apostles were often unlikely candidates for their calling. Jesus calls tax collectors, and unlearned fishermen, even Paul, the persecutor of Christians was an unlikely person to call to be an apostle. The calling of Bishops was originally, not based on religious training or political popularity or experience in rhetorical speech making. However, soon, these characteristics became the criteria upon which Bishops were called in the early periods of the Roman Christian religious movement.

For example, I mentioned the early attempt to create history in the counterfeit pseudo-Clementine letters. In this fictitious account, the apostle Peter insists that Clement take over his office : “You are the best qualified of all” he says … you lead a moral life, you are well instructed in the doctrine, and you have been with me and heard me preach more than anyone else…so the sooner you agree, the quicker you will relieve me of a great worry.” (Clement. Epistola ad jacobum 3, in PG 2:36-37) The language in this spurious letter reflects the later way a roman Bishop began to be called to an office.

The roman call to religious offices began to mimic the characteristics desires for political and non-religious offices. There is no mention of God’s will or of prophetic revelation. A bishop became chosen on practical grounds such as prior “moral character”; his "training" and his "experience". “A bishop” says the apostolic constitutions “must be trained and experienced in speech [logos]…He must not be over fifty years old..” the office became occupied by one who was trained and experienced in the word, as befitted his age.

The first duty of the bishop, says Ambrose, is to teach, and thus "bishops like everyone else must study and learn before they are ready to teach". (Ambrose, De Officii Ministribus 1.3, in PL 16:27)

This is NOT the same criteria as inspiration and revelation as was common in early judao-christianity. Instead in this same text on offices of the ministry, Ambrose tells us the source of his dogma regarding a bishopric by relating that his whole essay could be written using phrases “from the schools of philosophy”.



THE EVOLUTION OF THE OFFICE OF BISHOP INTO A POLITICAL OFFICE

The religious office was too often melded into and associated with the political office and it’s political power. Political office became magistracy, and most magistrates were priests in Rome; the political structure became synonymous with the state church.

The degree to which the church power was contaminated with political power and riches was not lost on the historians. The great significance of priesthood in public life, says Georg Wissowa, lay in the fact that “its bearers all held at the same time the highest civil offices and so played the decisive role in the senate.

Augustine’s own popular election to his high office,( like many of his friends), was basically a "popularity contest". As Possidius described in Vita Sancti Augustini Episcopi 4, (in PL 32:36-37), "the people chanted his name over and over again in front of his house" and would have become violent "had he not accepted the honor which it was their right to bestow". Bishops became elected by the people of the city and thus it was reported that Ambrose made bishop of Milan before he was even a Christian.

Such criteria and characteristics as these cannot BE solely applied to the authentic office of apostle or Bishop or any other calling made by God. The Lord alone chose apostles (some, who are unpopular types – such as tax collectors, etc), but the roman type of bishops had become popular candidates in every aspect. “The defensor of the Roman Church has informed us,” wrote Cassiodorus, “that lately, when a president was sought for the Papal chair, so much were the usual largesses to the poor augmented by the promises which had been extorted from the candidate, that, shameful to say, even the sacred vessels were exposed to sale in order to provide the necessary money.” (Cassiodorus, Historia Ecclesiastica 9.15, in PL 69:779)

Thus had the authentic Judao-christian office of bishop changed from a sacred religious office, and had, in the roman system of theology, more resembled a political office with all the corruption associated with a candidacy. It often came to resemble the deep corruption of political offices bought and sold in the roaring 30’s in America….along with its viciousness and corruptions of the warring parties.

For example : The rivalry between Damasus and Liberious and their roman “relilgio-political” constituents was not settled until the corpses of 137 of “the faithful” had been removed from the scene of the controversy in St. Peter’s. The first epistle of Clement deals with these very type of conditions in Corinth, which the writer finds “loathsome, disgusting, and devilish.”

As if to try to separate the church from the values; actions and corruptions of its bishops, the patrologia Gracae reminds us that "a bad bishop, is not really a bishop having been appointed not by God but by men". (PG 1:1068) Thus many of the “bad bishops” of rome, were not real and true bishops while others may have been. Under this arbitrary rule, one could never know if a bishop was a "true" bishop or a "false" bishop. Some were “successors” and some were not.



THE POLITICAL OFFICE STARTED “DOING WHAT POLITICIANS DID” – THEY SOUGHT FOR POWER

The irony is that when one looks, historically, at how a group gains power and influence anciently, the history of how they reached the current civil state of affairs is not always civil.

After the Apostles and Prophets had died off, the various congregations of Christian Churches were left to determine and develop and proselyte their own type of Christianity as they developed in different dogmatic directions. The type of Christian theology developed by the Romans became the most influential type of Christian theology in the west. This was not due to it being more correct than other christianities, but rather it was mainly for due to geopolitical reasons,

Frankel reminded us that in conflict, it is not necessarily the good and honest that come to power, but rather it is those who are aggressive and who are willing to engage in aggressive tactics to succeed. I do not think it was any different for the roman theologians and their followers.

POST THREE OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

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POST THREE OF FIVE

The Political fight for power and prominence

When the “rank of churches became determined by the prominence of cities as civil capitals,” it was inevitable that clashes between the rivals for prominence would take place. The Great Catholic Historian Duchesne observed that “the bishops of the capital did not content themselves for long with being the ecclesiastical heads of a single diocese.” This was simply human nature.

Once the episcopal seat became the highest office in the city, it became the goal of the ambition and the unscrupulous and those who were aggressive in nature. There are legions of examples of this phenomenon. “It is not the priestly office that is to blame,” writes Chrystostom, commenting on the increasing and spreading evil in his time, “but those who abuse it, as every intelligent person admits.”

Yet they continued to elect morally and religiously unqualified men , and wolves in sheeps robes instead, so that “in our day it has reached the point where, unless God very quickly snatches us from the danger and saves us and his church [all will be lost]. Pray tell me, where do you think all these riots come from that now fill the churches? From nothing in the world but the false teaching of those at the head, and from these haphazard and uncontrolled elections”.

He continues to discuss the state of contention in this early church : “Some are actually filling the churches with murder, leading whole cities to riot and revolt, all because they are fighting [to get themselves elected bishops].” This is a corrupt system that was NOT the character of the original Church of Jesus Christ. And, who rises to the top to lead other than the strongest and best able to subdue the others?

Thus the great Tertullian himself contemptuously describes the one “who calls himself the bishop of bishops.” and later Cyprian himself becomes so disgusted as to say “we recognize no bishop of bishops”. Though such religious individuals are disgusted at the type of individuals who are elected, they could not expect that a religious “lamb” was going to be elected to lead a rabble made of “pseudo-religious wolves”. Of course there are NOT just wolves in this mix, there are incredibly faithful and wonderful individuals in the mix. BUT, they are not aggressive nor are they willing to wage a limited war to gain control.

Thus, In this time of the apostolic fathers there is “fierce, loathsome, riotous sedition” within the Christian communities and the object of their warfare is so often the support of rival candidates to the office of bishop. Though the original and authentic episcopal office was not a political one, it certainly became one once it became the gift of popular election. This later episcopal office is NO LONGER an “apostolic” office.


THE INCREASINGLY POLITICAL NATURE OF ELECTIONS OF THE BISHOP OF ROME

There are good reasons for Tertullian and Cyprian and the apostolic fathers to complain of the lack of authentic religious leadership. The complete absence of any clear principle of succession at rome is strongly witnessed by the terrible strife and confusion accompanying the election of bishops in that city, especially during the fourth century. About a.d. 220, the double election of Callistus and Heppolytus led to a serious schism in the city, and the trouble was not settled until 235. Then came the schism between Cornelius and Novatus. In 354 Liberious was ordained 34th bishop of Rome, but the emperor wanted one of his own men in the position and made it an issue of doctrine to install his friend Felix.

However, the people had elected Liberious, and were insistent. The emperor finally recalled him to preside in Rome as joint bishop of Rome with Felix. But popular demonstrations continued, and the circus resounced with the shout of thousands who repeatedly exclaimed, “One God, One Christ, One bishop!” (Theodoret, Historia Ecclesiatica 2.14, in PG 82:1041)

Even worse trouble arose a few years later with the ordination of the next bishop of Rome, Damasus, whose election was challenged by the bishops, who elected a rival, Ursinus. When Damasus became bishop, writes Socrates, rioting instantly broke out all over rome because the preceding bishop had chosen not Damasus but Ursinus to be his successor (Socrates Scholasticus, Historia ecclesiatica 4.29, in PG 67:541). “So all the people rose in arms against each other, not because of any doctrine or heresy, but purely and simply over the issue of who was authorized to sit in the episcopal throne.” (Socrates Scholasticus, Historia ecclesiatica 4.29, in PG 67:541). Plainly there was still no definite rule of succession.

The next papal election brought on another crisis, reported by a contemporary, Ammianus: under Theodoric, “Symmachus and Laurentius being both consecrated, fought for the episcopal throne of Rome. By God’s decree, Symmachus, being worthy of the office, was victorious.” (Ammianus Marcellinus, Excerpta Valesiana 12.65.)

That is a significant principle of succession, for the barbarians who were ruling at the time ( and Theodoric and Ammianus were both barbarians) often believed in trial by duel: that the winner of a ritual combat was chosen of God. They now apply that principle to the election of the Roman Bishop, though is does not seem very apostolic. Later, another Symmachus, a deacon, became bishop of Rome, being “consecrated by a crowd of deacons,” says Theophanes, “from which came rioting, killing, and plundering in the city, which lasted for three years.” (Theophanes, chronographia 493, in PG 108:344)



THE GAINING OF POWER AND WEALTH AND INFLUENCE

However, once the Bishop start to vie for personal pre-eminence, they almost immediately engage in worldliness, pride and oppression. “Christ called fishermen and tent makers and tax collectors to this supreme authority,” wrote Chrystostom, “but the present clergy simply spit on those who earn their living by daily toil; whereas if someone is devoted to worldly studies, avoids hard work, etc., they receive him with open arms and admiration. Why is it that they pass right by those who have toiled and sweated all their days for the upbuilding of the church to give all the highest church offices to somebody who had never raised a finger to do any work but wasted all his time dabbling in useless, ornamental, worldly learning?

Even the arguments at Nicaea become contaminated with the desire for pre-eminence and power and influence. For example, the letters in Patrologiae Latinae `13:583-88 indicate the east-west Arian controversy very much part of the terrible struggle for episcopal pre-eminence. It often became a contest, not between theologians arguing for a specific truth, but between individuals vying for power influence and power and using their arguments to demonstrate their rhetorical and debating skills and superior knowledge.

As the church began to accumulate power and riches under the favor of the emperor, Eusebius tells how “some that appeared to be our pastors, deserting the law of piety, were inflamed against each other with mutual strifes, only accumulating quarrels and threats, rivalry, hostility, and hatred to each others, only anxious to assert the government as a kind of sovereignty for themselves.

But the events that occurred in the intermediate time, besides those already related, I have thought proper to pass by; I mean particularly the circumstances of the different heads of the churches, who from being shepherds of the reasonable flocks of Christ…did not govern in a lawful and becoming manner…[there were] ambitious aspirings of many to office, …great schisms and difficulties industriously fomented by the factions among the new members, against the relics of the church, devising one innovation after another. (Eusebius, Ecclesiatical History, 374-75; Eusebius, De Martyribus Palaestinae 12, in PG 20:1511-14)

POST FOUR OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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POST FOUR OF FIVE


3) AS BISHOPS STARTED WIELDING POLITICAL, FINANCIAL AND GOVERNMENTAL POWER, THERE WAS AN ALMOST IMMEDIATE TENDENCY TO ABUSE POWER FOR THE GAIN OF PROPERTY, FOR THE INCREASE IN MEMBERSHIP AND THE OPRESSION OF THOSE UNWILLING TO CONFORM

Among the clergy, the bishop had all priority, and “any cleric who opposes a bishop in anything must be deposed with all his followers, as having attempted to seize power: he is a rebel. All the laymen who follow him must be excommunicated.” (127 canons of the Apostles 2.22, in PO 8:673)

Almost immediately, they shielded themselves from normal laws by use of their power and position. “Bishops are to be judged by God,” not by men. They are above all human law.” (Pius I, Epistola 1.2, in PG 5:1121. “Laymen are not to be heard if they bring charges [against bishops]….No bishop may be refuted or accused of anything by the people or by vulgar persons.” “anyone who says a word against [a bishop], the eyese of the Lord, is guilty of the crime of lesemajeste…Those who accuse bishops are slain not by human but by divine agency.” “There is no worse crime than to bring a charge against a priest. The priest may be guilty, but even so, he must be left entirely to the jugement of God. For if all crimes are to be punished in this world, there will be nothing left for the exercise of divine judgment!” Such religious rules rendered the higher orders of priesthood immune to the normal responsibilities and retribution for evil acts.

Anyone who kills his wife,” a letter of Pius I avers, “and does so entirely without reason must do public penance; but if he is disobedient toward a bishop, let him be anathemized.” (Pius I, Etis, in PG 5:1127)

Such aspirations of individual bishops for power and riches and authority is clearly seen through the rules coming out of synods they held. To decrease inter-bishopric antagonism, in 314 the council of Arles passed a rule that “no bishop should annoy another bishop


Council of Nicaea, 325 :
Canon 15 Because of great disorder and rioting it will be necessary to abolish the old custom of allowing a bishop, priest, or deacon to move from one city to another. If any presumes to do this , he shall be sent back to the city in which he was ordained.

Canon 16 Priests, deacons, or others living under the canon who frivolously and irresponsibly leave their churches will be forced to return to them by all possible means. If they refuse to return they shall be deposed. If anyone steals a cleric against a bishop’s will and ordained him to serve in his own church, the ordination shall be void.”


Council of Encaeniss (Antioch), a.d. 341
Canon 3 A priests or deacon who moved permanently to another place and ignores his bishop’s appeal to return must lose the right to all office; if he goes to work for another bishop he must be punished to the bargain for breaking church law.

Canon 9 Bishops in every province must understand that the bishop in the metropolis has charge of the whole province because all who have business to transact come from all directions to the metropolis.

Canon 11 Any bishop, priests, or any churchman at all who dares to go to the emperor without a letter from his metropolitan shall be ejected utterly, not only from his church, but from his priesthood

Canon 16 When a bishop seizes a vacant seat without the okay of a full synod, he must be deposed, even though the people have elected him.

Canon 18 A bishop who cannot take over a church because the congregation will not have him must remain in honor and office but may not meddle in the affairs of the church where he is forces to remain.


Sardika a.d. 347
Canon 1 No bishop ever moves from a larger to a smaller city but only in the other direction (the size of the city increasingly become the measure of ambition and domination).

Canon 2 If it can be proven that a man has bribed parties to stir up a clamor for him as bishop “so to make it seem that the people are actually asking him to be their bishop,” he shall be excommunicated. (the reason such a rule had to be established should be obvious)


Epaon, a.d. 517
Canon 3 If the king acts against us, all bishops will withdraw to monasteries, and no bishop shall stir out again until the king has given peace to each and all bishops alike.

Canon 20 No layman may arrest, question, or punish a cleric without okay of the church. When a cleric appears in court, it must be with okay of his bishop, and no sentence may be passed without the presence of his spiritual superior.

Canon 32 Descendants of church slaves who have found their way back to the original place of their ancestors must be brought back to the church slavery, no matter how long or for how many generations they have been free. (Increasingly, the canons will favor the accumulation of money, property and individual lives)


Paris, a.d. 557
Canon 1 No one may hold that church property changes political denominations : no one can claim that church property ever passes under another ruler “since the dominion of God knows no geographical bounderies.” No one may claim that he holds as a gift from the king property that once belonged to the church. All property given by King Chlodwig of blessed memory and handed down as an inheritance must now be given back to the church.


Macon. A.d. 585
Canon 15 Whenever a layman meets a higher cleric, he must bow to him. If both are mounted, the layman must remove his hat. If the layman alone is mounted, he must dismount to greet the cleric.


Toledo, a.d. 589
Canon 20 Many bishops burden their clerics with intolerable compulsory services and contributions. Clerics thus cruelly oppressed may complain to the metropolitan.


Nabonne, a.d. 589
Canon 13 Subdeacons must hold curtains and doors open for superior clergy. If they refuse to do so they must pay a fine; lower clergy who refuse must be beaten.


Reims, a.d. 624-625
Canon 13 No one, not even a bishop, may ever sell the property or slaves of the church.(such a rule would mean that the church can only continue to gain property and financial value but it can never decrease it’s holdings.)


Toledo, a.d. 633
Canon 67 Bishops may not free slaves of the church unless they reimburse the church out of their private fortunes, and the bishop’s successors can reclaim any thus freed.

Canon 68 A bishop who frees a slave of the church without reserving the patrocinium [financial holdings] for the church must give the church two slaves in his place. If the person freed makes any complaint about the way he was treated while he was a slave, he must again become a church slave


Toledo a.d. 638
Canon 3 Thank God for the edict of King Chintila banishing all Jews from Spain, with the order that “only Catholics may live in the land…Resolved that any future king before mounting the throne should swear an oath not to tolerate the Jewish Unglauben [unbelief]…If he breaks this oath, let him be anathema and maranatha [excommunicated] before God and food for the eternal fire.”

Toledo a.d. 656
Canon 6 Children over ten years of age may dedicate themselves to the religious life without consenting their parents. When smaller children are tonsured or given the religious garment, unless their parents lodge immediate protest, they are bound to the religious discipline for life.

Emerita a.d. 666
Canon 15 It often happens that priests who fall sick blame church slaves for their condition and torture them out of revenge. This must cease.

Canon 16 Bishops must stop taking more than their third. They must not take from the church’s third for their private use.

Toledo a.d. 694
Canon 8 Jews must be denied all religious practice. Their children must be taken from them at seven years ande must marry Christians.

Boniface a.d. 745
Statute 13 Pasquil [jokes about the authorities] must be severely punished, even with exile.


Paderborn a.d. 785
Canon 21 anyone engaging in pagan rites must pay a heavy fine. If he cannot pay, no matter what his station, he becomes a slave of the church until he has paid up.

Canon 23 Soothsayers and fortune-tellers shall be given to churches and priests as slaves.


Lateran IV, a.d. 1215
Canon 3 All condemned heretics must be turned over to the secular authorities for punishment…Their property must be confiscated by the church. Those who have not been able to clear themselves of charges of heresy are excommunicated and must be avoided by all. If they remain a year under the ban, they must be condemned as heretics. All civic officers must take a public oath to defend the faith and expel from their territories all heretics. Whoever, when ordered to do so by the church, does not purify his district or domain of heretics will be put under the ban. If he does not give satisfaction within a year, he must be reported to the pope, who will absolve his vassals from all duty to him and declare his lands open to legitimate conquest by Catholics : those who participate in the attack will receive the same privileges as regular crusaders. …. Anyone who preaches without the authorization of a bishop is excommunicated…A bishop must inspect his diocese. His officers are authorized to have all inhabitants swear an oath to expose to the bishop all sectarians that can be discovered…anyone who refuses to take the oath automatically makes himself a traitor. ….

POST FIVE OF FIVE FOLLOWS

 
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The goal of oppression, and gain of riches and control becomes clear as one reviews such canons. I believe that such policies would, over a period of several hundred years, bring to the roman religious movement, the very things such rules and actions were designed to bring to them. As the clergy asserted greater and greater control of government, private life, and family life, the accumulation of power and resources would have happened at an increasing rate.

I believe that there were geopolitical reasons why, historically, the early Roman Christian Religious Movement became increasingly powerful and more influential and assumed greater numbers until the age when such overt policies could not survive in an increasingly educated world where individual freedoms increase to the point that only covert policies can remain active (at least in the more "modern" nations).

However, my point is, that this organization that developed their own type of Bishops; their own type of ecclesiastical line of authority; their own methods of reaching prominence and pre-imminence and power; influence and riches, this later organization had evolved into something different than the organization that Jesus had established in the earliest periods of the Christian movement.

This is not to say that the organization could not improve and repent, simply that these characteristics are not that of the original Congregation of a Church of Jesus Christ that Peter established in Rome under it's humble Bishop Linus.

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