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Featured What make you think they were NOT honest ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by chinu, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Honesty isn't the issue.
    All those you mention (if they existed) were before Evolution and Modern Science and The Big Bang and Continental Drift, etc, etc
     
  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Just out of curiouesity, when in uour understanding did big bang happen?
    Buddha, jesus and Muhammad was all on earth within the last 2500 years, so if big bang happen after them? Not sure i understand your thoughts
     
  3. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    OK, I should have said when the Big Bang was first postulated ie when Hubble first described the expansion of space (c1930 IIRC)
     
  4. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    So according to you, when was the big bang? FYI i do not say big bang did not happen :)
     
  5. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    About 13.7 billion years ago
     
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  6. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    So we can agree on that the known prophets and buddhas from our history was here long time after the big bang then :)
     
  7. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    Theism is largely irrelevant in Buddhism.
     
  8. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Did you not read my clarification post???
    The Big Bang may have happened many eons ago but was not known about to science until about 1930. Well after the prophets allegedly existed
     
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  9. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

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    Yes i did read it, and agree with you on this
     
  10. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    All I feel like saying at this time is that contemporary assessments of this question say a lot more about our contemporary culture and thinking than it does about the past.
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    First of all, who is making that claim, they were all lying / being dishonest?
    I'm guessing it's nobody and it's something you made up or misunderstood.


    There's more then just being dishonest as a reason for why inaccurate / false stories see the light of day.
    They could also just be mistaken for whatever reason.


    As for me, I usually operate from the (perhaps naive) position that people generally are sincere.
    But sincere people can be wrong as well. Somebody can honestly believe something, while being incorrect in that belief.

    And there are a lot of ways on how this can happen, especially when it comes to these types of claims.
    People are honestly mistaken all the time for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from simply misinterpreting certain events to outright hallucinations. It's not exactly rare... 2 in 100 people for example, will be dealing with psychotic style episodes or symptoms at some point in their life.

    Off course, people lie as well. Also for a wide variety of reasons. To be interesting, to be the center of attention, to gain some type of benefit from it, to gather a following,... there are lots of plausible motivations.


    Here's the thing though....
    Claims about supernatural things are extremely extra-ordinary. And none of them have extra-ordinary evidence to back them up. Or any evidence at all, for that matter.

    So on the one hand, we have countless of examples and precedents of people being mistaken or lying.
    On the other hand, we have zero of examples of confirmed supernatural activity of any kind.

    Apply occam's razor and what do you get?
     
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  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Yes. to the point of things that we today consider mundane. Like tides, storms, lunar cycles, sunsets, lightning, thunder, mountains, earthquakes, volcano's, hurricanes, shooting stars, meteor impacts, tsunami's,...........................

    I can only imagine what it must have been like 3000 years ago when seeing a volcano explode or seeing the night sky light up due to a small space rock burning up in the atmosphere.
     
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  13. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    Yes, I agree with your last sentence. Some of them the people mentioned it is also hard to know what they actually taught, like for instance Buddha and Krishna. I am a Baha'i, so I believe the essence of what they thought has been passed down nonetheless. Gurus can have some good insights sometimes, but they can be mistaken.
     
  14. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Unless you can sit down and talk with Krishna, Muhammad, Jesus, and Buddha you really have no idea what these individuals honestly believed or taught. All you have are accounts from other people claiming what they honestly believed and taught. If you've ever played the game of telephone in grade school then you know how a message can get completely distorted in the mere minutes it takes to whisper the message among a class room of children. Just imagine how distorted a message gets after centuries
     
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  15. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    means "re-union" with from where we all started the journey of life in the beginning.
    I think your are talking something like this thread Searching "Truth" in history. ?
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It's not always a question of honesty ─ if there was an historical Jesus he was raised as a circumcised Jew speaking Aramaic (rather than Greek, then the language of learning). Culturally, for him and for everyone else, there were gradations of divinity everywhere, from Caesar right up to Zeus, from the Temple up to the Jewish god in whom he believed. Atheists weren't his target, his fellow Jews were, and the best guess is that his message was that of John the Baptist, Get Ready, the End Times are Coming in Your Lifetime! I assume he, or John, or the others, would say that because they thought it was probably true. (On the other hand, the threats of burning in hell are straight out of the sales manual, much more cynical.)

    Gautama Buddha was apparently agnostic about the gods. In the Kalama Sutta, regarded (I read) as very early so likely authentic, he says you live a moral life because it's the best path, and allows you to contented. And should there be an afterlife, it can't hurt either.

    Muhammad is difficult to reconstruct as an historical figure. He was apparently a military leader. Being skilled at conquest is simultaneously admired at a tribal level and questionable as a moral stance when proclaiming a God of All.

    (I'm not well-informed about Krishna. I'm a Ganesha man at heart.)

    But in short, each is a product of a particular culture, time and place.
     
  17. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    The two go hand-in-hand. You can't determine if they were honest if you can't verify what they actually said.
     
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  18. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    no beef with those cats, it is their fan club that is the trouble, bunch of impersonators who wouldn't know the original if it stared 'em in the face,
    where were you when I was naked and alone and in prison or in exile he said, ......really i don't know you guys.
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Well, Krishna is a myth. Buddha was nice, presented a new scenario. Gurus, how far back you want to go in history? Many are myths. Yeah, most believed what was the prevalent theory in their time, God, soul, heaven, hell, etc. Greeks and Indians thought outside the box too. Of the Gurus prior to 20th Century, most of them (I do not say all) were well-meaning. But one cannot say that of the gurus in 20 Century or current age. One has to check very thoroughly.
    About Jesus and Mohammad, they were after their own acceptance and importance. The first one failed to establish the 'Kingdom of God' in his life time, the other enjoyed his kingdom for a short time. I do not even believe that Mohammad believed what all he was saying. It was all for public consumption.
     
    #39 Aupmanyav, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I think some religious leaders were/are honest, some are insane, and some are deceived.

    How else to explain the Bible/Qu'ran contradiction? Specifically speaking of Jesus, the Bible says He is the Son of God. Specifically speaking of Jesus, the Qu'ran says He is not God.

    An eastern mystic can live with this contradiction better than any western rationalist. Either Jesus didn't exist or did, if He did/does, He's the Son of God or not.

    The Bible shows Jesus's sincerity IMO. The Bible proclaims anyone who trusts Jesus's death and resurrection as payment for sin has eternal life.
     
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