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What language did Jesus speak?

Amechania

Daimona of the Helpless
Based on the Gospels alone Jesus must have been able to speak some Koine or Latin if he had a private conversation with Pilate (how anyone knew of this conversation is a bit of a mystery). Jesus is said to have lived in Nazareth, a town just 5K from the Galilean capitol Sepphoris. Sepphoris had been a Greek city that was rebuilt by the Romans so it likely boasted sizable populations of both groups. If the family of Joseph was in the construction trade they probably had many dealings with the inhabitants. I can imagine young Jesus hanging out at the bazaars or forum asking for work in Greek, Latin, Aramaic and Hebrew.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What makes you so certain? He is recorded as bending down and writing in the dust.
One issue though is that the Greek word for "write" really means "draw" or "mark" and the notion of "writing" is an extension of this, in that "to write" is to draw, scratch, and/or mark the surface of some material with symbols. So while it certainly can mean he was writing words, the context also admits a different interpretation: he was doodling with his finger, not really writing.

Also (although it may not mean anything as far as historicity is concerned), the whole story of the adulterous women was almost certainly a later addition to John.
 

Shermana

Heretic
im certain he knew some things, he was pretty bright by all accounts, well I think so because his sayings were that of a intelligent man.

but no where would someone like this had real training to be able to read, let alone write.


and the verse your talking about is way to far removed from the actual events to be of any use, for such detailed analysis

The verse of Jesus writing in the dust is the Pericope Adulterae which doesn't show up in any early manuscripts and is considered by most to be an interpolation (John 7:58-8:11). Pretty much all translations have a little asterisk there.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The verse of Jesus writing in the dust is the Pericope Adulterae which doesn't show up in any early manuscripts and is considered by most to be an interpolation (John 7:58-8:11). Pretty much all translations have a little asterisk there.

thank you

I knew it wasnt credible


we also have Ehrman claiming illiteracy as well.

Not to many of the modern scholars, none that I know of claim her could read or write.
 

somethingNiftyhere

Squadoosh 1@ATime
I've been wondering; If Jesus spoke Aramaic or some other dialect, then everything had to be translated into Greek. Add to that the very real possibility that several of the people that heard Jesus speak must have gone off and repeated the stories orally. The sayings of Jesus could have been spread orally in several different languages. I would think that at least some of the stories must have been "creatively" repeated and very different than the original words spoken by Jesus. Now, of course we have the written Gospels based on what is presumed to be the "original" Greek manuscripts. Yet, are even they, merely a translation?

Christianity began as an oral tradition. The ministry of Jesus, the parables, etc... were not written down until decades after Jesus death.

If one believes in full all that is related about Jesus in the new testament mythology, then Jesus being God incarnate, a demigod, would have had the ability to speak every known language on the earth.
As Genesis says; in the beginning was the word and the word was God.

Sound, harmonics, resonance. Jesus would have spoken any and all languages.

If Jesus is perceived as just a man who possessed a higher consciousness than most, given his upbringing and the region in which he was born he would have spoken Aramaic and Hebrew.
Hebrew most certainly, if he was in the Temple and reading from the scrolls to the congregations. Again, this would be per the new testament accounts.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Based on the Gospels alone Jesus must have been able to speak some Koine or Latin if he had a private conversation with Pilate (how anyone knew of this conversation is a bit of a mystery). Jesus is said to have lived in Nazareth, a town just 5K from the Galilean capitol Sepphoris. Sepphoris had been a Greek city that was rebuilt by the Romans so it likely boasted sizable populations of both groups. If the family of Joseph was in the construction trade they probably had many dealings with the inhabitants. I can imagine young Jesus hanging out at the bazaars or forum asking for work in Greek, Latin, Aramaic and Hebrew.


in reality. he probably never had a conversation with Pilate.


Pilate was a brutal bloodthirsty man with a hatered for Galileans, he simple would have orderted him tortured, and that was that.

Both Pilate and Caiaphas had one intention, keeping passover peaceful so that he didnt have a riot of 400,000 jews. this was a big money making event for the the temple the likes of a modern day rock concert. And peace was of the utmost priority.

A trouble making peasant would have not have needed a trial, a order by a guard to arrest him at night and hang him up on a cross the next morning, would have been the smartest thing to do to keep peace. doubt it even made it as high as Pilate or Caiaphas. Not saying they were ignorant of the event either.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
According to Alan Millard, Rankin Professor Emeritus of Hebrew and Ancient Semitic Languages, and Honorary Senior Fellow (Ancient Near East), at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology at the University of Liverpool, literacy in the Latin and Hellenistic influenced area of Palestine during the first century. This literacy varied from reading only, to reading, writing and composing.
From what little we know of the historical Jesus, it is likely that he was literate and well versed in Hebrew scripture. Also, as a trained tradesman, it would have behooved his father to teach him both reading and writing. The Hebrews were strict record-keepers concerning debts and contracts.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
A trouble making peasant would have not have needed a trial, a order by a guard to arrest him at night and hang him up on a cross the next morning, would have been the smartest thing to do to keep peace. doubt it even made it as high as Pilate or Caiaphas. Not saying they were ignorant of the event either.
Many Messiah claimant were killed by the Romans. Albeit Jesus would have been the least violent of them.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've been wondering; If Jesus spoke Aramaic or some other dialect, then everything had to be translated into Greek.

Not necessarily. It has been argued (albeit with little evidence to support the claim) that Jesus knew and sometimes taught in Greek. The evidence, such as it is, comes mainly from our knowledge of the dynamics of lanuage use and language acquisition in multilingual regions in general, as well as what we know of these dynamics in and around the first century and the regions of the Roman empire.

It's almost certain that Jesus spoke Aramaic as a first language. It's also probable he knew Hebrew, as although it was a "dead language" it was still taught through scriptural study and spoken when these texts were discussed. It's possible he knew Greek, or some Greek, but I would say it's pretty unlikely his competence (if he had any) was such that he could teach/preach in Greek, let alone did.

Add to that the very real possibility that several of the people that heard Jesus speak must have gone off and repeated the stories orally.

There's an important thing to note: in all the gospels, we have stories about Jesus, in which he may be quoted saying this or that but the thrust (and most important component) of the story isn't the exact words here or there, but the message of the story itself (excepting the times in which it may be that the story developed around a teaching of Jesus, in order to provide context). We also have parables, apothegms, and other oral "genres" woven into the gospels. Cross-culturally, these are both transmitted and receieved via different mechanisms than are reports of some incident or event.

Also important to keep in mind is that it is very likely Jesus repeated himself many times (that's what teaching tended to be in those days), and in ways which deliberately made memorizing them easier.


The sayings of Jesus could have been spread orally in several different languages.

They clearly did. But the question is when did this start? It has been argued (I think convincingly) that this "translation" started immediately. In other words, even though Jesus appears to have deliberately avoided regions heavily populated by gentiles, he clearly interacted with them, and it seems likely that some of those who heard him teaching (or heard of his teachings while he was alive) were not sufficiently familiar with Aramaic. It is likewise very likely that some of his followers were competent in Greek, and began the translation process while Jesus was still living. Thus an early form of the Greek "sayings" (teachings, parables, etc.) of Jesus likely began to be "fixed" while he lived.

I would think that at least some of the stories must have been "creatively" repeated and very different than the original words spoken by Jesus.

Cross-culturally, "stories" (i.e., eye-witness accounts about some event which are passed on, quickly becoming 2nd-hand, 3rd-hand, etc.) are highly likely to result from initial accounts that were wrong to begin with. Law enforcement, psychologists, and anthropologists (among others) are quite familiar with this phenomenon. Most such "stories" are another type of genre altogether: rumor.

However, a caveat is important. First, a lot depends on the circumstances surrounding whatever the story describes. If someone runs into a lecture hall waving something in his hand and screaming "I've got a gun" before running out, chances are everbody will say he had a gun when in fact it was a banana (this has been done). However, if instead of the above, the lecture hall was used as the location for some university course (which means that both the lecturer and audience had a certain degree of familiarity with one another and with the structure of the class), and in one particular lecture what started out as a particular student asking a particular question and ended up in a shouting match between teacher and student, it's far more likely that the rest of the class would independentally describe what happened fairly accurately.

The latter situations is more akin to what we have with Jesus: he had a regular following in a time and place where even rumor often becomes fairly "fixed" (even if, by the time that happens, there is nothing factual left). It's very likely that many of the incidents recorded in the gospels became incorporated into the "oral memory" of the community of followers early on. Although this doesn't help much when it comes to the initial inaccuracies reported by eye-witnesses (which are inevitable), it does mean that the accounts were repeated among eye-witnesses (a check against inaccuracy in some cases) and again were transformed into a "fixed" oral form to be readily transmitted.


Now, of course we have the written Gospels based on what is presumed to be the "original" Greek manuscripts. Yet, are even they, merely a translation?

Not to hear Maurice Casey tell it. The answer is yes and no. No, because even if some of what Jesus taught he repeated in Greek, and even if some of the accounts were initially repeated in Greek alongside of Aramaic (rather than a translation), the authors of the gospels did more than just write down orally repreated material. They incorporated it into literary constructions. And yes, because although the attempts to "reconstruct" underlying Aramaic are (I believe) almost completely fruitless, that doesn't mean there isn't a clearly discernable Aramaic influence on the texts.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Many Messiah claimant were killed by the Romans. Albeit Jesus would have been the least violent of them.

agreed

he surely wasnt violent enough to be recorded prior to the temple incident.

And heres my thoughts

the temple incidents were recorded by romans for romans, so I dont think we are getting a 1/10 of the reality

everything we have is painting romans as inoccent, and jews as the villains, which is opposite the truth
 

outhouse

Atheistically
According to Alan Millard, Rankin Professor Emeritus of Hebrew and Ancient Semitic Languages, and Honorary Senior Fellow (Ancient Near East), at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology at the University of Liverpool, literacy in the Latin and Hellenistic influenced area of Palestine during the first century. This literacy varied from reading only, to reading, writing and composing.
From what little we know of the historical Jesus, it is likely that he was literate and well versed in Hebrew scripture. Also, as a trained tradesman, it would have behooved his father to teach him both reading and writing. The Hebrews were strict record-keepers concerning debts and contracts.


I did mention modern scredible scholars did I not???

Allan is a known biased scholar who didnt even specialize with anything around Galilee and views the bible as being historic in all its accounts.



any chance you could try a credible modern scholar? id love to see what evidence is really out there for literacy of a Galilean
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
yes

but not a trained teacher.

he was a freelancer, who took learning from a outcast who lived outside and ate bugs and wild honey, another poor oppressed disgruntle jew, who were both not happy with judaism as it stood
we don't know that, because we don't know anything about Jesus between ages twelve and 30. Jesus knew the Law backward and forward, according to our best sources. I'd say it's probable he could at least read.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
we don't know that, because we don't know anything about Jesus between ages twelve and 30. Jesus knew the Law backward and forward, according to our best sources. I'd say it's probable he could at least read.


we dont know a thing about him prior to 30 years of age. the temple 12 year old stuff would be fictional a long with the birth fiction.

as far as im concerned, the best we have is the temple incident, and beyond that we have a traveling teacher in Galilee, hoping for dinner scraps. And being baptised by JtB.

remember, while alive he was a nobody. If a man like that could read or write, we would have preserved scripture straight from him, you would be better off playing Q as from jesus hands, but that isnt going to be likely either

jews knew the laws of their religion correct, all jews.


jesus doesnt have enough historicity to attribute language beyond what cultural anthropology states, or literacy.

and they show a 90% to 95% illiteracy rates in Palestine. You get into rural Galilee, and it would have been worse.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
thank you

I knew it wasnt credible


we also have Ehrman claiming illiteracy as well.

Not to many of the modern scholars, none that I know of claim her could read or write.
but it is alluded to, so some doubt can be cast on his inability to write.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I did mention modern scredible scholars did I not???

Allan is a known biased scholar who didnt even specialize with anything around Galilee and views the bible as being historic in all its accounts.



any chance you could try a credible modern scholar? id love to see what evidence is really out there for literacy of a Galilean
Try Bernard Brandon Scott and Dennis Smith.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
remember, while alive he was a nobody. If a man like that could read or write, we would have preserved scripture straight from him, you would be better off playing Q as from jesus hands, but that isnt going to be likely either

jews knew the laws of their religion correct, all jews.


jesus doesnt have enough historicity to attribute language beyond what cultural anthropology states, or literacy.

and they show a 90% to 95% illiteracy rates in Palestine. You get into rural Galilee, and it would have been worse.
True, but then, most stuff wasn't written down. And most of the stuff that was written down was written on clay tablets that could be "erased" and reused.

Bottom line: We don't know whether Jesus was literate or not.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Allan is a known biased scholar who didnt even specialize with anything around Galilee and views the bible as being historic in all its accounts.

Biased how? Or rather, given that everyone (scholar or not) is necessarily biased, what about Allan in particular makes him different?



any chance you could try a credible modern scholar? id love to see what evidence is really out there for literacy of a Galilean

How do you define credible? Seán Freyne, in the section "Galilee of the Gentiles- Fact or Fiction" from the 4th chapter of Galilee, from Alexander the Great to Hadrian, 323 B.C.E. to 135 C.E.: A study of Second Temple Judaism, states that "there is a general agreement that Greek was widely spoken in Palestine as a whole, even in Jerusalem and among the nationalistic circles in New Testament times- a conclusion based on epigraphic, archaeological and literary evidence" (p.139). Moreover, while "there seems little doubt that Aramaic remained the most commonly spoken language of the vast majority of the inhabitants of Galilee throughout the whole period of this survey" it is also true that "Greek was certainly widely used even among the lower, uneducated classes" (p. 144).

Of course, this doesn't mean they could read Greek, but being a "people of the book" did make literacy among Jews atypical relative to Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc.
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I did mention modern scredible scholars did I not???

Allan is a known biased scholar who didnt even specialize with anything around Galilee and views the bible as being historic in all its accounts.



any chance you could try a credible modern scholar? id love to see what evidence is really out there for literacy of a Galilean
:rolleyes:
Professor Joseph Naveh, Hebrew University
Professor Catherine Hezser, Hebrew University
Professor Siegfied Morenz, German Egyptologist and Coptologist
Professor Albert I. Baumgarten, Bar-Ilan University
Professor Meir bar-Asher Hebrew University
etc..

But I am sure you can Wiki up some more references for yourself to support your own position.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Biased how? Or rather, given that everyone (scholar or not) is necessarily biased, what about Allan in particular makes him different?

.

he states the bible is inerrant, even his wiki link states he wanted to preserve as much literal history as possible
 

outhouse

Atheistically
:rolleyes:
Professor Joseph Naveh, Hebrew University
Professor Catherine Hezser, Hebrew University
Professor Siegfied Morenz, German Egyptologist and Coptologist
Professor Albert I. Baumgarten, Bar-Ilan University
Professor Meir bar-Asher Hebrew University
etc..

But I am sure you can Wiki up some more references for yourself to support your own position.


Nope a little better lol


ill research them.
;)
 
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