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What kind of socialist are you?

Discussion in 'Socialist Only' started by Labourwave, Sep 6, 2016.

?
  1. Social Democrat

    54.2%
  2. Marxist

    16.7%
  3. Leftcom

    4.2%
  4. Anarchist

    16.7%
  5. Trot

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Reformist Socialist

    8.3%
  7. ML

    8.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Labourwave

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    Did you see his reddit IAMA? It was online a few days ago.
    Some interesting stuff being discussed if you're interested.


    I don't like him a ton but he's practical, and that's something the left really lacks.
     
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    No, I didn't see it but I'll check it out later when I have more time.

    I like his approach, but I don't think it's realistic in the sense that I can't see too many people in this country going anywhere close to accepting his approach.

    Thanks for the link.
     
  3. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    I don't think the anarchists who blow things up or assassinate people are particularly democratic, no.
     
  4. Labourwave

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    So you advocate a nonviolent transition?
     
  5. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Yes.
     
  6. Labourwave

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    How do you imagine that will occur?
    Seems rather unpractical to me.
     
  7. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    We keep trying violent revolution, etc.
    It keeps failing, although we expect it to succeed.
    As Einstein and others have pointed out, that is the definition of insanity.
    Ergo, we need to try the alternative.

    How do I expect it to occur? By people voluntarily changing themselves, not trying to impose involuntary change on others.
     
  8. Labourwave

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    As far as I can see, the Anarchist experiments have been destroyed by foreign imperialism, not an internal cause.

    Those calling for violent revolution aren't trying to impose involuntary change on others for the most part.
    A socialist revolution of any sort requires huge amounts of support from the working class, many more than would participate in the entirety of the democratic elections.

    I like your view, I just don't see it as feasible.
     
  9. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    If it requires violence, it's not democratic; and whether or not those who call for violent revolution think or say they aren't trying to impose involuntary change...they are. Violence begets violence, especially when the power and wealth of the society still concentrates in the hands of a few...that isn't democracy, either.

    I don't necessarily see it as "feasible," either....In the words of John Lennon: "Imagine"...just that nonviolence is more feasible than relying on violence, which humans have shown again and again to NOT WORK TO CAUSE REAL SOCIAL CHANGE. Changes in regimes, yes, but no real democratic system or society.
     
  10. Labourwave

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    Are revolutions not the purest form of political democracy we have?

    How so?
    The reason why we advocate a violent takeover is because the capitalist state will always try to sustain its own interests above whatever the people vote for.
    If the vast majority of people are fighting alongside the revolution, is it not inherently a people ran movement?
    Of course the people need to be democratically involved in the replacement state(or lack of) that emerges, but the idea of nonviolent transition seems to be the most idealistic thing ever advocated except possibly the idea that capitalism can sustain itself.

    Violent revolution wasn't chosen as the preferable method of change, it was imposed on the masses because concentrated power and wealth are immune to popular democracy.



    Do you not recognize the real world change achieved by states like Cuba or anarchist movements like Catalonia, the free territory of Ukraine and the current movements in Rojava Kurdistan?

    I would recommend the book reform and revolution by Rosa Luxembourg.
     
  11. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    No. Revolutions are almost always efforts of small groups to overthrow an existing system and place themselves in charge, rarely allowing the change of power and system to be put to any fair vote or democratic input.

    The purest form of political democracy is the local community, when all members are engaged in the process of making the decisions that will affect them, their relatives, and their relationships.

    Violence must be met with violence, eh? That's worked so well.:rolleyes: It is NEVER the masses who create the revolution. Instead, a small group decides that there is something wrong with society. They find that they can't get the current system to change fast enough for them, so the FORCE THE ISSUE by fomenting violent overthrow, and manage to get enough of the masses--through threats and/or lies--to go along with it. Once the old order is removed, the masses are kept in name, but are subject to the same sorts of oppression and non-democracy.

    Blaming capitalism and modern political states (yes, with all their faults, including violence) for continuing the cycle of violence--and in fact, taking a position that violence is absolutely necessary--shows a lack of imagination and a lack of a willingness to take the time and effort to cause real social and political change in the population, so that violence becomes unnecessary.

    I'll note that the forms of "popular" democracy currently used in modern nation-states are not necessarily (and often aren't at all) what real democracy is. Trying to use the current systems of popular democracy to fix the ills of those democracies will be difficult at best--but it's better than continuing the cycle of violence.

    Over the past century, there have been a number of efforts cited, including these. I'm not current on all of these, but those I have seen over the years suggests that there is often a gap between the rhetoric of a movement and its actuality. About the only one I'm familiar enough with and think could be a successful model is the Israeli Kibbutzim. I've heard good things about efforts among the Basques, too.

    But that there is no one clear solution does not cause me worries, though--no one really knows what the "end product" of peaceful and truly democratic social change will look like. The only thing I'm sure of is that it will take effort at the individual and community level FIRST, for it to happen at all. It has taken hundreds of years to get into this current situation, and realistically, it will take hundreds of years to get out of it.

    I'll add it to my reading list.
     
  12. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't think I'm any of these. I've always considered myself a Libertarian Nationalist/Socialist. No, I'm not a National Socialist, I am a Libertarian Socialist who happens to also be a nationalist.
     
  13. Corvus

    Corvus Feathered eyeball connoisseur

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    I am I guess a green socialist. I think capitalism can work for everyone and the environment, when properly fettered and regulated. Intervention in the free market always has to be an option, because the free market is indifferent to human suffering.
     
  14. Labourwave

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    How'd that turn out?
     
  15. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    I'm a socialist in a minimal sense. Democracy is more imortant to me than socialism but I believe there is a good argument to be made for the workers controlling the means of production in many cases (and the workers being the primary beneficiaries of their work in almost every case), the defence of the public good and the commons, and the rights of communities to control the administration of their own education, health, and governance.
     
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  16. RoseKnows

    RoseKnows Your guess is as good as mine

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    I would say that i'm a bit of a libertarian socialist, although I would say that having a state provides more stability.
     
  17. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    I am a marxist right now... I vote right christian conservative, but after getting busted for travelling at high speed against red, lost everything I owned, and now tries to figure out the economics of marx (das capital), i am thinking of starting to vote for left parties again...
     
  18. Labourwave

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    How do you reconcile Marxism with Christianity?

    (Not attempting to be antagonistic, just curious)
     
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  19. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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  20. JesusMyFriend

    JesusMyFriend Rosalia

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    I totally don't know what kind of socialist I am.. but what I do know is I believe in what socialism teaches. A society where everyone has the same. Maybe I should emphasise I have always supported Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Socialism, so I guess that's the kind of socialism I want to practice (I respect those who oppose/don't like him but will not answer to any hate post against him) because I believe he did change the situation for many Venezuelans (especially the poor). I know if wasn't completely a socialist state but at least that was the dream he wanted to achieve. :)
     
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