What is your view of Pacifism?

[Spirit of Light]

True, no one could force you to fall in line with their fascist ideology but if they had gained power, they could make you wish you had. In Germany in those years, pacifists like the Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned or killed.

Yes, I am aware of I would be put in jail or killed for not wanting to hurt other people, which just shows how false that ideology(nazism and Fascist) they hold is.

 

[joe1776]

Yes, I am aware of I would be put in jail or killed for not wanting to hurt other people, which just shows how false that ideology(nazism and Fascist) they hold is.

Are you aware of the debt you owe to the millions of combatants who fought against fascism and oppression so that you wouldn't be imprisoned or killed for your pacifism?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you aware of the debt you owe to the millions of combatants who fought against fascism and oppression so that you wouldn't be imprisoned or killed for your pacifism?

No, i am not aware of that, because they have the same choice as I did, to say no to serve a corrupt leadership and greedy politicians. People take their own choice, Myself or other pacifists can not be guilty of what others choose to do. We can only be guilty of what we, our self choose to do.

 

[joe1776]

No, i am not aware of that, because they have the same choice as I did, to say no to serve a corrupt leadership and greedy politicians. People take their own choice, Myself or other pacifists can not be guilty of what others choose to do. We can only be guilty of what we, our self choose to do.

I don't understand your response. Are you saying that the people who fought against the Nazis and other Fascists were guilty of immoral conduct therefore you don't owe them a debt of gratitude for the freedom you enjoy today (including the fact that you won't be imprisoned or killed for your pacifist views?)

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't understand your response. Are you saying that the people who fought against the Nazis and other Fascists were guilty of immoral conduct therefore you don't owe them a debt of gratitude for the freedom you enjoy today (including the fact that you won't be imprisoned or killed for your pacifist views?)

No, i say that they took a choice and fought back when the country was attacked. I did not speak of moral conduct at all. I only say that a pacifist who chose to not fight in a war can not be guilty of murder when it is other people who actually shoot.
If Norway (where I live) was again attacked by someone I would choose to not take sides with any of them. And if I could help wounded people from both sides I would do so. I see human beings, not enemies.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

These days there is so much discussion about war and who is right or wrong when it comes to what is seen as the correct way of actin toward others. But only a few of us do not want to take part in a war or see it as a solution to a problem.

So pacifists is a very minority in the world, But what is your view of those who see themselves as a pacifist?

PS: I will hide under my sofa until this discussion is finished because I think I get some comments toward me since I am a pacifist

I think pacifism is wrong because it's unrealistic. Imagine if the Allies were pacifists during WWII.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think pacifism is wrong because it's unrealistic. Imagine if the Allies were pacifists during WWII.

Why do everyone pull WW2 out of the hat when it is talking about pacifism ?? we living in 2019 now, not in 1940-45.

 

[joe1776]

No, i say that they took a choice and fought back when the country was attacked. I did not speak of moral conduct at all. I only say that a pacifist who chose to not fight in a war can not be guilty of murder when it is other people who actually shoot.
If Norway (where I live) was again attacked by someone I would choose to not take sides with any of them. And if I could help wounded people from both sides I would do so. I see human beings, not enemies.

When I ask you if the people who fought against the Nazis and other Fascists were guilty of immoral conduct in your opinion, you ducked the question saying: "I did not speak of moral conduct at all."

Since we are debating a moral issue, you can't just abstain on a key question. In your opinion, are the people who kill in self-defense or to protect other innocents under attack as millions did in WW2 guilty of immoral conduct or not?

 

[Spirit of Light]

When I ask you if the people who fought against the Nazis and other Fascists were guilty of immoral conduct in your opinion, you ducked the question saying:"I did not speak of moral conduct at all."

Since we are debating a moral issue, you can't just abstain on a key question. In your opinion, are the people who kill in self-defense or to protect other innocents under attack guilty of immoral conduct or not?

I do not answer questions from WW2 because i was not there. I do not judge those people on either side since i was not living at that time. I would much more speak of situations happening today since i am alive now.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why do everyone pull WW2 out of the hat when it is talking about pacifism ?? we living in 2019 now, not in 1940-45.

Because the world would be entirely different if the Axis Powers had one the war, and they were terribly close to winning. That's the last war we can say that about.

The point is that pacifism could have never defeated the Nazis. They just killed pacifists. They didn't respect non-violence at all. Just made it easier to kill their enemies. So your approach would've lead to the Nazis winning the war. Also, it is immoral to not choose a side when one side is so obviously wrong and a danger to the world.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because the world would be entirely different if the Axis Powers had one the war, and they were terribly close to winning. That's the last war we can say that about.

The point is that pacifism could have never defeated the Nazis. They just killed pacifists. They didn't respect non-violence at all. Just made it easier to kill their enemies. So your approach would've lead to the Nazis winning the war. Also, it is immoral to not choose a side when one side is so obviously wrong and a danger to the world.

Who says we must choose a side? maybe it is better to stay away from it and mind our own business when it comes to fighting others. Personally, i have no enemies. But i do not say example ISIS does the right things, No they don't.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who says we must choose a side? maybe it is better to stay away from it and mind our own business when it comes to fighting others. Personally, i have no enemies. But i do not say example ISIS does the right things, No they don't.

So if the Nazis took your neighbors or family members away to a concentration camp to be gassed or maybe have vivisection performed on them, you wouldn't fight against them?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So if the Nazis took your neighbors or family members away to a concentration camp to be gassed or maybe have vivisection performed on them, you wouldn't fight against them?

I would gladly switch side with the neighbor so they could live on if that was possible, but No i would not kill any of the people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would gladly switch side with the neighbor so they could live on if that was possible, but No i would not kill any of the people.

Your neighbor is Jewish so they still want to kill your neighbor. If your neighbor has a family, they'll want to kill the family including the kids, too. Babies go straight to the gas chamber. Even if they kill you, they'll still kill other civilians. You would just be one more. Still not your enemy?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Your neighbor is Jewish so they still want to kill your neighbor. If your neighbor has a family, they'll want to kill the family including the kids, too. Babies go straight to the gas chamber. Even if they kill you, they'll still kill other civilians. You would just be one more. Still not your enemy?

As i said, I do not see others as my enemy.

 

[joe1776]

I do not answer questions from WW2 because i was not there. I do not judge those people on either side since i was not living at that time. I would much more speak of situations happening today since i am alive now.

That's a weak response because the facts of the situation are clear. It doesn't matter when they happened.

Your claim is that pacifism is the right moral response to acts of fascism and oppression but you are unwilling to state that the non-pacifists who killed in self-defense or in the protection of innocent others to stop Nazis and other fascists was the wrong moral response. That's not making sense.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's a weak response because the facts of the situation are clear. It doesn't matter when they happened.

Your claim is that pacifism is the right moral response to acts of fascism and oppression but you are unwilling to state that the non-pacifists who killed in self-defense or in the protection of innocent others was the wrong moral response. That's not making sense.

If you can't get off the fence, and your position doesn't make sense.

I don't stand responsible for what others do, I can only say what I stand for. So if someone else does an action, for example, killing, they can not blame me for doing it. Because they chose to do it on their own free will.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As i said, I do not see others as my enemy.

I view your stance as cowardly and immoral, then. There's nothing worse than a person who won't fight in the face of certain evil, or worse yet, thinks he is righteous for not doing so.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I view your stance as cowardly and immoral, then.

That is ok, you are free to have your opinion about me, without getting me angry about it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is ok, you are free to have your opinion about me, without getting me angry about it.

In my worldview, following your stance would be about the highest dishonor. The person would be despised by the community and their name tarnished. Your grave would be spat upon.