What is Your Stance?

[IndigoChild5559]

Ezekiel's vision of a temple is an interesting one. But tell me, isn't there a concept in Judaism that the temple will eventually descend from heaven to earth? I believe I heard that some time ago.

Beginning in the third century CE, Jews began to imagine a heaven Jerusalem and Temple, given that Jerusalem was in ruins and it certainly appears as though it would never appear to recover its former glory. Further, it was imagined that someday, the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem would be united, based on Psalm 122:3 “Jerusalem built up, a city knit together.” This heavenly Jerusalem and Temple is contained in Maon, the fourth of seven heavens.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You can accept or reject the message that Jesus said he would have preached in all the earth before he brings this world to an accounting.

Not if we are blind. If we are blind, we cannot see the choice. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

 

[YoursTrue]

Beginning in the third century CE, Jews began to imagine a heaven Jerusalem and Temple, given that Jerusalem was in ruins and it certainly appears as though it would never appear to recover its former glory. Further, it was imagined that someday, the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem would be united, based on Psalm 122:3 “Jerusalem built up, a city knit together.” This heavenly Jerusalem and Temple is contained in Maon, the fourth of seven heavens.

Interesting that Paul said he had been transported to a higher heaven, of course it was a vision of sorts. Also, Revelation 21 states: "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Obviously symbolic, but thrilling nonetheless to realize that God is going to be with his people and will wipe out all tears (of sadness, of course) from their eyes. Shalom.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus and the destruction of the Temple are 40 years apart, and unrelated.

Jesus actually foretold the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem along with its inhabitants.....a very familiar place to a devout Jew.

Luke 19:36-44...47-48.....
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey (as it was prophesied in Zechariah 9:9)......
"As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road. 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name! Peace in heaven, and glory in the heights above!” 39 However, some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to him: “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 40 But in reply he said: “I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out.”

41 And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. 44 They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.” . . .

"He continued teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the principal ones of the people were seeking to kill him; 48 but they did not find any way to do this, for the people one and all kept hanging on to him to hear him."

Jesus wept at the prospect of what was coming, but they had brought it on themselves. Why else would God allow the Romans to destroy his Temple, as Babylon had done before? Since Messiah had not yet arrived, when his people were in exile, God re-established his worship and had his rebuilt temple......but once Messiah had come and been accepted by a "remnant" of the Jewish people, when they murdered yet another prophet sent by God, he again allowed the Temple and city to be destroyed, because of the actions and attitude of the Jewish people. Yet Jesus had warned his disciples to flee to the mountains. This saved their lives....but over a million Jews perished in that holocaust.
Was God with his people? Can you tell me why he wasn't?

Not if we are blind. If we are blind, we cannot see the choice. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

This is a blindness by choice, not by unavoidable happenstance. "None so blind", as the saying goes...."as those will not see".

Jerusalem shows no sign of having God's blessing and neither do the Jewish people.....all those who treat God with contempt by disrespecting his representatives will pay the penalty. How did the Jewish nation always treat their prophets? (Matthew 23:37-39) You tell me....

 

[YoursTrue]

Not if we are blind. If we are blind, we cannot see the choice. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

Let's see how it works out.

 

[oldbadger]

So you'd join the military knowing you would be step by step figuratively or actually with those who would kill and you might also kill,

I would obey an order to join my country's military .if there was no lawful way to avoid this.
I can see that you are having difficulty with this.

but you wouldn't put your supposed enemy in a gas chamber.

No........ you got that wrong.
I wouldn't put anybody in a gas chamber...... nobody.
Please don't add frills to my words.

 

[Muffled]

I'm sorry Muffled, but in this case you are only fooling yourself. To accept scientific method is to accept the TOE. There is no point in arguing about it here, as there is an entire forum devoted to this. Basically, creationism starts with the conclusions first, and then looks for evidence to support it -- and that just isn't scientific method.

I believe the data is that God created everything. One does not have to theorize about it because it is already a known fact.

 

[YoursTrue]

We agree that Hitler lived in the 20th century don't we? And that Watergate happened in the same century? Yet the two events are not related.

Similarly, Jesus and the destruction of the Temple are 40 years apart, and unrelated.

What happened to the temple in Jerusalem is what? just something that happened? Hitler and Watergate happened in two different countries. Watergate was not good, it was a sign of corruption on the part of the governmental powers, but Hitler was quite a different story.

 

[YoursTrue]

I would obey an order to join my country's military .if there was no lawful way to avoid this.
I can see that you are having difficulty with this.


No........ you got that wrong.
I wouldn't put anybody in a gas chamber...... nobody.
Please don't add frills to my words.

OK, now this is oldbadger I am answering. Since you feel you would join your country's military if ordered to, but would defy the order to herd people into a gas chamber if ordered by your government, there isn't anything much I can say beyond that right now. Except to ask if you were ordered to kill the enemy on the battlefield, would you do that, too?

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe the data is that God created everything. One does not have to theorize about it because it is already a known fact.

Hi. I have books on anatomy and enjoy looking at them. I simply cannot accept that the heart, the brain, the bones, the veins, came about by evolution. Further, the heart beats without a machine.
Jeremah 10:12 -
"He is the Maker of the earth by his power,
The One who established the productive land by his wisdom
And who stretched out the heavens by his understanding."
(That includes gravity and the electrical impulses of the heart.)

 

[YoursTrue]

That's a monstrous thing to do. Besides me not wishing to kill people, I refuse to be part of progressing a system where that is done to people. Because at that point, I'd become the monster too. I'd rather walk into that gas chamber with them.

Noble sentiment, but again -- and I don't want to tell you what my conscience is right now, but it's almost like working as a doctor or nurse in an abortion clinic. Some would do it, and others, based on their conscience, would not.

 

[Jesster]

Noble sentiment, but again -- and I don't want to tell you what my conscience is right now, but it's almost like working as a doctor or nurse in an abortion clinic. Some would do it, and others, based on their conscience, would not.

Okay. I disagree. Believe what you want though.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay. I disagree. Believe what you want though.

Of course, that is my "God-given" right to do so. If my belief changes about joining the military in any capacity, if you and I are here, I'll try to let you know. Shalom and have a nice evening.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay. I disagree. Believe what you want though.

What are you disagreeing about? That you think it's ok to kill an unborn child, and that it's ok to join the military but not to shoot upon command? I can see you're really not interested in answering, perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you think you don't want to give me your response, OK, thanks for conversation. Bye.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay. I disagree. Believe what you want though.

lol what are you disagreeing about? (I just re-read the posts.)

 

[Jesster]

What are you disagreeing about? That you think it's ok to kill an unborn child, and that it's ok to join the military but not to shoot upon command? I can see you're really not interested in answering, perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you think you don't want to give me your response, OK, thanks for conversation. Bye.

lol what are you disagreeing about? (I just re-read the posts.)

I disagree with you about abortion and relating it to murder, as well as your use of loaded language to bait me into a defensive response. I also don't wish to engage with you about that argument. That argument never goes anywhere, and I never asked for it. I came here for a different topic entirely.

 

[oldbadger]

OK, now this is oldbadger I am answering. Since you feel you would join your country's military if ordered to, but would defy the order to herd people into a gas chamber if ordered by your government, there isn't anything much I can say beyond that right now. Except to ask if you were ordered to kill the enemy on the battlefield, would you do that, too?

It's time for you to tell us all that you would not obey any government call up to join the military by law, that if somehow you were forced to join that you would not obey orders.

If this is correct, then I can assure you that no military people would want you anywhere near them in any military situation. They'd never be able to trust you, YoursTrue.

That's your position, I'm guessing. So if you are ever called up in a national emergency it would be best if you would explain that straight away.

And don't join the Police either, because sometimes Police might have to be armed and to shoot to defend themselves or others.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tell me in what say Jesus brought world peace between the nations.
Tell me in what way Jesus brought ALL the Jews back to the Land.
Tell me in what way Jesus ruled from throne in Jerusalem.

Unlike the time frame for the Mosaic Law Covenant , Jesus is part of the New or Everlasting Covenant as per Jeremiah 32:40.
Jesus to bring the health and peace as per Jeremiah 33:6; Revelation 22:2.
There 'will be' healing for earth's nations.
This is why we are all still invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Since what the Bible calls Pentecost, it is now ' Jerusalem above ' ( 'heavenly Jerusalem' as the seat of government - Galatians 4:26 ).
So, since Pentecost the Bible is speaking about being a ' spiritual Jew ' according to Romans 2:28-29.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I disagree with you about abortion and relating it to murder,..................

In Scripture, abortion is a High Crime when the intended purpose is just to get rid of an unwanted child.
In such a selfish situation both doctor and mother act as executioner that the unborn is Not worthy of life.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus actually foretold the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem along with its inhabitants.....a very familiar place to a devout Jew.

Luke 19:36-44...47-48.....
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey (as it was prophesied in Zechariah 9:9)......
"As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road. 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name! Peace in heaven, and glory in the heights above!” 39 However, some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to him: “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 40 But in reply he said: “I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out.”

41 And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. 44 They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.” . . .

"He continued teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the principal ones of the people were seeking to kill him; 48 but they did not find any way to do this, for the people one and all kept hanging on to him to hear him."

Jesus wept at the prospect of what was coming, but they had brought it on themselves. Why else would God allow the Romans to destroy his Temple, as Babylon had done before? Since Messiah had not yet arrived, when his people were in exile, God re-established his worship and had his rebuilt temple......but once Messiah had come and been accepted by a "remnant" of the Jewish people, when they murdered yet another prophet sent by God, he again allowed the Temple and city to be destroyed, because of the actions and attitude of the Jewish people. Yet Jesus had warned his disciples to flee to the mountains. This saved their lives....but over a million Jews perished in that holocaust.
Was God with his people? Can you tell me why he wasn't?



This is a blindness by choice, not by unavoidable happenstance. "None so blind", as the saying goes...."as those will not see".

Jerusalem shows no sign of having God's blessing and neither do the Jewish people.....all those who treat God with contempt by disrespecting his representatives will pay the penalty. How did the Jewish nation always treat their prophets? (Matthew 23:37-39) You tell me....

It's easy for the author of a gospel to place words of prophecy about the temple's destruction into Jesus mouth when the author of the gospel is writing AFTER the destruction of the temple.

Paul says that *GOD* gave Jews eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear. So, no, if you buy into what Paul is saying, it is not a blindness that we choose. It is a blindness put upon us by God, and it removes moral responsibility from us, since there is no choice involved.