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What is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

I'm going to try and give a more concrete answer to this rather than just talk about principles to illustrate why I'm sceptical.

Taking Bernie Sanders as an example. Although I can agree with much of what he says, his political positions bear little or no relationship to the fact that the United States has a two-party system. Whilst focusing on policy is good in terms of substance, he's relying on convincing people that the Republican Party will not affect his or his party's ability to implement a radical agenda, effectively assuming they won't oppose his policies and will not simply try to reverse them as soon as he is out of office when he's campaigning.

The Affordable Care Act/Obamacare wasn't Socialist, and look at the level of resistance and hysteria that generated and the threats to repeal it as soon as a Republicans got back in control of Congress and the White House. It is very hard to imagine the same thing not happening if Sanders became President. All this assumes that Sanders would have complete support within his own party- which is unlikely given the dominance of the Clinton-Obama "New Democrats" since the 1990s.

The flip side of this, is that Sanders couldn't by pass the Republicans because of the separation of powers and the way the U.S. Constitution works. As President, he couldn't just write an executive order and say "hey look, you all get free health care now". It get challenged in the Supreme Court (much like many of FDR's new deal programs were and his attempt to "pack" the supreme court). You'd have to control both houses of Congress, the Presidency and appoint a majority of supreme court justices to pursue a radical socialism program in the United States.

And this is all assuming that there isn't a potential coup or assassination attempt by the military or the intelligence services who have lots of friends amongst the business community given all the private contracts they have and lots of practice of overthrowing left-leaning democratic governments overseas when it suited them. (Again, there were allegations of such a conspiracy against FDR or maybe possible CIA involvement against Iran (1953) or Chile (1973). And of course, there is the less obvious options of trying to impeach him through Congress, passive resistance within the Federal government by not fully or urgently implementing his policies, or using the 25th amendment to replace him with a vice president (who may be more "sympathetic" to the concerns of the business community).

And this is still assuming the Democratic nomination is a fair fight, and that the presidential election is not going to be driven by wealthy donors using their money to defend their privileges and a hysterical mass media shouting "socialist" and making unfair comparisons with the Soviet Union, China, etc because they have only a tenuous relationship with truth even when it suits them.

Now, take a close look at Sanders; he's been a a mayor for 8 years (1981-1989), a member of the House of Representatives for 16 years (1991-2007), in the Senate for 12 years (2007-2019). You've got two options with Sanders:

Option 1 is he doesn't understand how democracy works in America despite serving over two decades in public office, or is so utterly blinded by his good intentions and belief in the american people he cannot see the limitations of working in a constitutional system of government with a two-party system;

Option 2 is he doesn't really care about Socialism and there is a hidden agenda at work and the socialist rhetoric is just a smoke screen for what he's actually doing.

Where ever you try to implement Democratic Socialism, you get a variation of this problem. If you are a Democrat, whilst claiming to serve the people and derive legitimacy from realising their interests, it also means you may not get voted in, you will have to face resistance to implementing your policies or they will be overturned when you leave office. If you're lucky, you might get a Scandinavian situation where Social Democratic Parties hold power for so long it's effectively a one-party state, but if your a socialist and you want to kill capitalism and keep it dead, it's nearly impossible to support Democracy at the same time.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter if Sanders provides an inaccurate definition or a non-definition. We have to look at Democratic Socialism as defined by political scientists. If you want to look specifically at Sanders' political ideology, we can do that, but I'm not going to say that somebody's a member of X ideology just on how they choose to label themselves, because many people don't fully understand the labels they're using.
We have to look at what the candidates propose, regardless of what they call it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Historically, Sanders is a Communist. He loved Communism. Of course it's not impossible that he changed his position on Communism but it is just as likely that he can't get any political support by calling himself a Communist.

Why does he hold onto the term Socialist while claiming he is a capitalist? :shrug:
Why muddy his position? Perhaps he still harbors some hope in moving the US towards Communism.


Thanks for sharing the video. It was really interesting. I don't think Bernie Sanders is a Communist, primarily because he doesn't support a one-party state (the same reason I don't think Trump isn't a fascist honestly). But the kind of juggling act he's done in the past is common amongst Socialist-Communist supporters who focus on the "positive" aspects of socialism in terms of welfare provision whilst downplaying and minimising the loss of human rights. It useful to know Sanders does actually fit that pattern even if he isn't an out-right commie.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"the way it's designed to" is the operating phrase there. There's a reason every country that has tried socialism has ended up in the toilet. No system with humans in it ever works perfectly as planned. Capitalism is controlled chaos, and sure, we're in an atrocious corporatist phase right now where corporations are treated like people with more than equal rights, but that's not the way things used to work, and we can still fix this. I'll be supporting some Democrats in the primaries myself, but I won't just cast a presidential ballot for any old person with a D next to their name.
What countries are you referring to? The USSR? China? These authoritarian regimes aren't what people are advocating when they say "democratic socialism. Democratic socialism is more like what we see in Scandinavia.

Capitalism tends to be a zero sum, dog-eat-dog competition, with the winner amassing huge wealth and the losers sleeping in the streets.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

It does not take into account personal responsibility. It ignores that there are horrible jobs which are necessary in the modern world people would not do without incentives and burdens. Who wants to be a janitor by choice instead of circumstance? It promotes envy and greed in the masses under the false idea people's labour is worth what each individual wants it to be worth instead of the market. It is an fantasy.

Democrat Socialism is not Social Democracy. It is still Socialism ergo a branch of Communism. You have fallen for the bait and switch. Look up the terms you are using.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
What countries are you referring to? The USSR? China? These authoritarian regimes aren't what people are advocating when they say "democratic socialism. Democratic socialism is more like what we see in Scandinavia.

Capitalism tends to be a zero sum, dog-eat-dog competition, with the winner amassing huge wealth and the losers sleeping in the streets.

Scandinavia still has capitalism. It pays the bills.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Democratic Socialism still has capitalism, but you'll never believe it!!
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
That is social democracy. Get your terms right.

You who doesn't have a clue what Democratic Socialism is; trying to tell me??? What a laugh!!
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Wikipedia is a biased source, try reading up on Scandinavian Socialism and how it has worked for decades then get back to me, you seem more interested in fascist politics anyway, why this obsession with making up crxp about Socialism.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Wikipedia is a biased source, try reading up on Scandinavian Socialism and how it has worked for decades then get back to me, you seem more interested in fascist politics anyway, why this obsession with making up crxp about Socialism.

Demonstrate the page is biased.

The PM of Denmark refuted the claim they are socialist. Try again.

You are babbling about fascism as you can not refuted my point with evidence. Yawn. Try again son. You used the definition wrong so you are deflecting

Denmark: A Case Study in Social Democracy | Per Henrik Hansen
Sweden: Swedish Social Democracy in Action! | Global Education and Initiatives | San Jose State University
Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist
The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism | Corey Iacono
Nordic model - Wikipedia

8:00 pretty much.

 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Wikipedia is a biased source, try reading up on Scandinavian Socialism and how it has worked for decades then get back to me, you seem more interested in fascist politics anyway, why this obsession with making up crxp about Socialism.
How is it biased? What source would you like to provide instead?

All indications say that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist. Nordic model - Wikipedia
 
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