What is your biggest complaint/disagreement with the bible

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I have no complaint with the Bible. I just don't consider it a source of knowledge or wisdom. Its myths and prophecies have no application in my life, and its moral imperatives reflect an ancient people's problems and don't address many modern moral precepts.

Please elaborate on this because I found just the opposite especially Proverbs for Wisdom, I found these to be timeless truths as well as for practical living.

If you found guidance in those passages, then they were helpful to you.

My definition of a truth is something that can be shown to be correct. Most statements in the Bible don't meet that requirement, and one need not consult holy books to find the ones they contain those that do. So, yes, the Golden Rule is a timeless moral imperative for me and many others, but I didn't get that insight from the Bible. How could I? It only gives instructions to obey it beside many other instructions that turn out to be of no value. One has to learn which of these ideas resonates with his own conscience empirically. The intuitions of the conscience and life's lessons resulting from both obeying and defying that intuition are the teacher, not any book.

Were you asking only about that first sentence, or both? I'll answer as if both.

I find no value in myths. I suppose it was a reasonable way to codify and transmit common cultural values and generate a sense of community in the days when people had very little education and simple stores were ways to teach.

Nor in prophecy. I find nothing helpful there.

And the Bible is no longer applicable as a moral authority or a good source for moral guidance. The world has changed too much. The Bible contains moral commandments that I consider immoral, and it fails to address the issues of the modern world, where slavery is considered immoral, freedom of and from religion are considered rights, homosexuality and atheism are morally neutral rather than sins of abominations, and democracy is preferred to authoritarian governments.

Once again, none of these are complaints about the Bible. It's fine like it is to me, but is not a resource. As I alluded, that which I call knowledge and wisdom is acquired empirically, by trial-and-error. This is how I have decided which ideas accurately represent the world and can be used to predict outcomes to facilitate that which facilitate contentment. This is how I have discovered what love is, how to love others, and how to decide who loves back and who is just saying the words with no idea of what they should mean. It's how I learned to treat others - empirically, not from Proverbs in my case. One makes mistakes, the conscience punished him, and he modifies his behavior in the future accordingly to facilitate a better outcome next time.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[firedragon]

That would depend on the extent to which the Septuagint would have been true to the Hebrew original. And also to what extent there was a consensus among Hebrew scholars, then and now, regarding the integrity of those copies of the Hebrew Tanakh available to linguistic scholars in 17th Century England. I know that the KJV translators made reference to pre existing translations, but worked as far as possible from original sources.

That does not respond to my question.

Anyway, most scholars from around the world know that the septuagint has many many manipulated translation errors in it in comparison with the Jewish Tanakh. Or the Hebrew version that is. So though the KJV translators claim that they took the bomberg print of the Hebrew text, but though they claim it, they dont translate it, but use the septuagint instead.

Is that great scholarship? And I am only referring to the OT at the moment in questioning your position on the KJV as superior scholarship.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That does not respond to my question.

Anyway, most scholars from around the world know that the septuagint has many many manipulated translation errors in it in comparison with the Jewish Tanakh. Or the Hebrew version that is. So though the KJV translators claim that they took the bomberg print of the Hebrew text, but though they claim it, they dont translate it, but use the septuagint instead.

Is that great scholarship? And I am only referring to the OT at the moment in questioning your position on the KJV as superior scholarship.

I think you'll find that the Hebrew Rabbinic Bible (and commentaries) rather than the Septuagint, were used as primary sources. The KJV is considered to be closer to the Hebrew tradition than any previous English translation. No one is saying it's completely true, theologically, linguistically, or culturally, to the original, nor that Christian scholars weren't working to a specifically Christian agenda. Clearly they would have interpreted Hebrew scripture from a Christian rather than Jewish perspective.

If you know of an English translation of the Tanakh which you consider to be a work of superior scholarship to the KJV, perhaps you'll be good enough to point me in it's direction?

 

[ElishaElijah]

If you found guidance in those passages, then they were helpful to you.

My definition of a truth is something that can be shown to be correct. Most statements in the Bible don't meet that requirement, and one need not consult holy books to find the ones they contain those that do. So, yes, the Golden Rule is a timeless moral imperative for me and many others, but I didn't get that insight from the Bible. How could I? It only gives instructions to obey it beside many other instructions that turn out to be of no value. One has to learn which of these ideas resonates with his own conscience empirically. The intuitions of the conscience and life's lessons resulting from both obeying and defying that intuition are the teacher, not any book.

Were you asking only about that first sentence, or both? I'll answer as if both.

I find no value in myths. I suppose it was a reasonable way to codify and transmit common cultural values and generate a sense of community in the days when people had very little education and simple stores were ways to teach.

Nor in prophecy. I find nothing helpful there.

And the Bible is no longer applicable as a moral authority or a good source for moral guidance. The world has changed too much. The Bible contains moral commandments that I consider immoral, and it fails to address the issues of the modern world, where slavery is considered immoral, freedom of and from religion are considered rights, homosexuality and atheism are morally neutral rather than sins of abominations, and democracy is preferred to authoritarian governments.

Once again, none of these are complaints about the Bible. It's fine like it is to me, but is not a resource. As I alluded, that which I call knowledge and wisdom is acquired empirically, by trial-and-error. This is how I have decided which ideas accurately represent the world and can be used to predict outcomes to facilitate that which facilitate contentment. This is how I have discovered what love is, how to love others, and how to decide who loves back and who is just saying the words with no idea of what they should mean. It's how I learned to treat others - empirically, not from Proverbs in my case. One makes mistakes, the conscience punished him, and he modifies his behavior in the future accordingly to facilitate a better outcome next time.

I hope this answers your question.

My impression of what you said was that the Bible didn’t contain wisdom or any useful principles that apply to today’s world, I was asking for example of that, because I see the Bible as relevant to today’s issues as any resource available. I found Scripture applies to every area of this life and the next.

 

[firedragon]

I think you'll find that the Hebrew Rabbinic Bible (and commentaries) rather than the Septuagint, were used as primary sources. The KJV is considered to be closer to the Hebrew tradition than any previous English translation. No one is saying it's completely true, theologically, linguistically, or culturally, to the original, nor that Christian scholars weren't working to a specifically Christian agenda. Clearly they would have interpreted Hebrew scripture from a Christian rather than Jewish perspective.

See, having a Christian agenda is not superior scholarship. And in translation, superior scholarship is to translate as a translation, not change the interpretation according to anyones perspective. The KJV has a lot of them.

If you know of an English translation of the Tanakh which you consider to be a work of superior scholarship to the KJV, perhaps you'll be good enough to point me in it's direction?

Sure.

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, ACCORDING TO THE MASORETIC TEXT - A NEW TRANSLATION WITH THE AID OF PREVIOUS VERSIONS AND WITH CONSTANT CONSULTATION OF JEWISH AUTHORITIES, PHILADELPHIA

THE JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY OF AMERICA

This was printed by Lake Side Press.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

My impression of what you said was that the Bible didn’t contain wisdom or any useful principles that apply to today’s world, I was asking for example of that, because I see the Bible as relevant to today’s issues as any resource available. I found Scripture applies to every area of this life and the next.

What I said is, "I just don't consider [the Bible] a source of knowledge or wisdom." I don't go to it for either. Many important moral issues in modern life are either not addressed or are answered with what I consider bad advice

The Bible contains some ideas in it that are mine as well, but not because they come from that source. My means for deciding what is true and what is good and right generate what I call knowledge and wisdom is empiricism, not consulting holy books. If you find value there, then the Bible is a appropriate source of guidance for you.

I don't know what you are looking for an example of. I can give you examples of what I consider errors and bad advice in the Bible:

• "The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2

• "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient" - Titus 3:1

• "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Ephesians 6:5

• "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22

Maybe you think that these are timeless truths. I don't. I see them as dated advice better disregarded today. Better advice would be to establish democracies with guaranteed personal rights and freedoms, be an autonomous citizen and not a subject, slavery is immoral; do not try to own people, and husbands and wives should cooperate as equals with each having the same rights, and economic and social status. This is what I mean by saying that the Bible's commandments are inadequate today, and if one goes to it for advice, he'll see things like what I reproduced. Hopefully, he'll know to ignore them.

That first two were probably a problem for the American revolutionaries trying to enlist colonials to take up arms against a king chosen by God as their rightful ruler, rebellion against him being sin. I suspect that's why the Declaration of Independence includes, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This contradicts scripture and makes rebellion under certain circumstances not a sin as scripture suggests, but a right granted by God. That was a step toward modernity. Today, we'd just leave the creator part out altogether. Unfortunately, the last two had too much influence, and led to forming a state that discriminated against blacks and women, two ideas that progressives have been battling to remedy since. All of that needs to be relegated to the past according to humanist and Enlightenment values.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I see many complain about the bible.

So what is your biggest complaint/disagreement with the bible?

Who knows what it really says?
Doesn't everyone go buy what others tell them what they think it says?

That it's treated like an idol and end all-be all of life's answers.

 

[Heyo]

My biggest issue with the bible is that it's a very long book and it takes a lot of work to understand. Everything has to be studied according to context, so it takes a lot of time and energy. But in the end I find it worth it, even if I would prefer something smaller and easier.

There is a shorter version: Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia

 

[Heyo]

If you know of an English translation of the Tanakh which you consider to be a work of superior scholarship to the KJV, perhaps you'll be good enough to point me in it's direction?

I do know nothing about Bible translations or how to judge their quality but I'd expect scholars to constantly try to improve on earlier versions. The KJV may have been the best at its time but outdated today. If I were interested in Bible studies, I'd take recommendations from sites like Best Bible Translations For 2022 (how to choose the best one)

 

[ChristineM]

I see many complain about the bible.

So what is your biggest complaint/disagreement with the bible?

Who knows what it really says?
Doesn't everyone go buy what others tell them what they think it says?

My biggest complaint is that people take it as a weapon to attack anyone different.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Saint Paul. Let's remove Paul...and the NT is perfect.

All three of them?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I see many complain about the bible.

So what is your biggest complaint/disagreement with the bible?

Who knows what it really says?
Doesn't everyone go buy what others tell them what they think it says?

It's a big book full of fantastical stories. It's hard to pick one as there are many things in there that bother me and find simply despicable.

If I had to choose one, I guess I'ld go with a core idea. The idea that humans are "guilty" of the crime of being human and that we somehow need a "savior". And that this "saving" can only happen by the killing of a scapegoat.

I think it's one of the most reprehensible ideas I have ever come across to describe the human condition.

As the infamous Hitch once said: Created sick and commanded to be well


I should also note that the only reason things like that bother me, is because there are so many people that take it seriously. If it had the same status as the ancient Egypt's Book of the Dead, or the Iliad or any other ancient writings that nobody takes seriously today - it wouldn't bother me at all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I see many complain about the bible.

So what is your biggest complaint/disagreement with the bible?

Who knows what it really says?
Doesn't everyone go buy what others tell them what they think it says?

My biggest complaint is the Bible is not even remotely a science or history book. None of the fictional story's are actually true or ever really happened on the basis of its absurdity and well embellished narratives that would put a fishermans tall tales to shame.

 

[paradox]

My biggest complaint about the bible is difficulty to understand which parts of the OT do not apply to me as a Christian.

In particular I'm in search for universally applicable method that will tell me not only which parts do not apply but also why.

For this reason understanding OT is difficult.

 

[firedragon]

My biggest complaint about the bible is difficulty to understand which parts of the OT do not apply to me as a Christian.

In particular I'm in search for universally applicable method that will tell me not only which parts do not apply but also why.

For this reason understanding OT is difficult.

There is no universally accepted or applicable method. Never have been, and I dont think there ever will be. This method would be arbitrary.

But that's not a beef you should have with the Bible but doctrine.

 

[RestlessSoul]

My biggest complaint is the Bible is not even remotely a science or history book. None of the fictional story's are actually true or ever really happened on the basis of its absurdity and well embellished narratives that would put a fishermans tall tales to shame.

My biggest complaint about Newton's Principia Mathematica, is that there are no recipes in it, and nothing at all about how to change the head gasket on a Mk !V Ford Cortina.

 

[paradox]

There is no universally accepted or applicable method. Never have been, and I dont think there ever will be.

I don't agree with that.
I made a new thread regarding this and put forward a partial solution:
How do you distinguish which parts of OT are not applicable to you as a Christian? | Religious Forums

 

[firedragon]

I don't agree with that.
I made a new thread regarding this and put forward a partial solution:
How do you distinguish which parts of OT are not applicable to you as a Christian? | Religious Forums

You had created your own system to pick what suits your own doctrine.

Thats exactly what I said is done, and you have shown it paradox.

 

[paradox]

You had created your own system to pick what suits your own doctrine.

eh, if I made my own system then I would ask no questions right?

If your sole point is to attack me then please construct an argument for your claim that "There is no universally accepted or applicable method. Never have been, and I dont think there ever will be."

 

[firedragon]

eh, if I made my own system then I would ask no questions right?

If your sole point is to attack me then please construct an argument for your claim that "There is no universally accepted or applicable method. Never have been, and I dont think there ever will be."

I didnt attack you mate. YOU gave your own thread as a response, and that thread is an example of what I said exactly.

There is no universally applicable method to interpret the OT and pick and choose which verses are apt and which are not. The only method is to choose what suits the already established doctrine, and the thread you gave has done exactly that.

In the OT, even the books are chosen by the church. That is why there is a douay version and the protestant version with a different number of books in the OT. That is why there is a Greek style interpretation or translation of the Tanakh that Christians accepted for so long and used for their doctrine, while the Tanakh has very different translations due to direct access to the Hebrew language. I am talking about your own topic.

Its arbitrary. Not subjective. Think about it. The Jews or at least some Jews have a kind of a day where they stand against the septuagint like a ritualistic annual day of rejection. Same book. And this is not doctrinal differences that they have a problem with, it is the misrepresentation. Many.