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What is wrong with the Quran?

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
"The life of this world is only a deceiving enjoyment." Quran 57:20

What is wrong with the Quran? Please.
Regards.

This thread seems a good-faith effort to give one person's impressions of the Qur'an by the OP. In an attempt to keep it vaguely on topic, I am going to cease replying in a non-thematic manner and merely report all off-topic "preach-spamming" henceforth. I would encourage those who agree with me to follow suit.

Didn't you create about 2 to 3 pages of off-topic posts in one of my topics?

What is wrong with those people who worship spirits?
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
The first section is a single thought, read not as separate verses but as a single block . I have consulted 5 or 6 translations to get to the most plausible format (obviously there is no punctuation in the original). This one I am quoting from Abdel Haleem. What is your translation source?

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2 This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful of God, 3 who believe in the unseen, keep up the prayer, and give out of what We have provided for them; 4 those who believe in the revelation sent down to you [Muhammad], and in what was sent before you, those who have firm faith in the Hereafter. 5 Such people are following their Lord’s guidance and it is they who will prosper. 6 As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. 7 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their
eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

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I am going to quote commentary regarding the word "corruption" or "fasad" in v11 and v12

11 When it is said to them, ‘Do not cause corruption in the land,’ they
say, ‘We are only putting things right,’ 12but really they are causing
corruption, though they do not realize it.


Ibn Abbas and others state that "corruption upon the earth" refers to open disobedience against God or alternatively the results of such disobedience. One interpretation, attributed to Salman-al-Farsi, states that the people to whom this passage refers have not yet come, and its an explanation that most classical commentators (like al-Tabari) accept in the sense that this verse do not restrict the description of corruption as hypocrisy, disobedience and inequity to the Prophet's contemporaries.

The word "putting things right" (muslih) means that they actually believed that their own practice of religion was correct or that they were acting in their self-interest in trying to bridge the gap between believers and disbelievers (Razi).

Source:- Harper Collins Study Quran.

Could you provide sources from which you are getting your particular interpretation? Thanks a lot. If alternate interpretations are more correct, I will surely look at them.

Fasad just means corruption. But the phrase Awfasadhin fil ardha in the Quran has to be understood from the context of the quran.

Any commentator has a bad habit of thinking each verse was revealed for one particular incident. That is why they try to comment about that single verse as an individual.

The Quran has to be read as one single book with context within it.

Quran has explained who these corruptors are. They kill in the name of God. One of the major descriptions in it.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Fasad just means corruption. But the phrase Awfasadhin fil ardha in the Quran has to be understood from the context of the quran.

Any commentator has a bad habit of thinking each verse was revealed for one particular incident. That is why they try to comment about that single verse as an individual.

The Quran has to be read as one single book with context within it.

Quran has explained who these corruptors are. They kill in the name of God. One of the major descriptions in it.
Please show your interpretation to be correct by quoting appropriate scripture and commentary. Its quite clear to me, based on the section of verses here that in this passage, fasad refers to people who are diluting the message of quran and do not believe it zealously enough.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The word "corruption of the land" (fasad) means any act whatsoever that goes against the proper reading and application of the word of Allah in Quran. Thus it can mean unlawful killing and other acts prescribed by the Quran as well as to false beliefs, skepticism about the word, attempts to reinterpret the doctrine etc. All your quotes in the link are completely in synchrony with such a meaning of corruption.

Further, because of its wide application, the word's meaning in a particular instance has to be read from the context of the sentence (and commentaries when necessary).

So for example here:- (Cow chapter)

8 Some people say, ‘We believe in God and the Last Day,’ when
really they do not believe. 9 They seek to deceive God and the
believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize
it. 10 There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added
more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
11 When it is said to them, ‘Do not cause corruption in the land,’ they

say, ‘We are only putting things right,’ 12but really they are causing
corruption, though they do not realize it. 13 When it is said to them,
‘Believe, as the others believe,’ they say, ‘Should we believe as the
fools do?’ but they are the fools, though they do not know it. 14When
they meet the believers, they say, ‘We believe,’ but when they are
alone with their evil ones, they say, ‘We’re really with you; we were
only mocking.’ 15 God is mocking them, and allowing them more
slack to wander blindly in their insolence. 16 They have bought error

in exchange for guidance, so their trade reaps no profit, and they are
not rightly guided.


A reading of the verses show that a very plausible interpretation is that here the term "corruption of the land" refers to actions of people who through self-deception and for reverence to authorities other than God (the evil ones) seek to change how the faith is believed by most pious Muslims, calling their ways foolish and seeking to "improve" them and hence causing corruption of the land. Hence this verse can be so easily be used to indict all attempts to reform Islam.

Now the way is clear for every sect of Islam to call other groups the real corrupters and hence as you yourself have so helpfully pointed out Quran says:-

5:32 On account of [his deed], We decreed to the Children
of Israel that if anyone kills a person– unless in retribution for
murder or spreading corruption in the land
– it is as if he kills all
mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all
mankind.

Thus giving sects of Islam divine justification to kill each other by accusing other sects for corruption of the land.


See the problem? It is the Quran itself that is legitimizing the sectarian strife within Islam.

And when you are saying that a very traditional Hadith believed by a billion Muslims and for over a thousand years, is mistaken, are you not ceasing to believe as others do and hence you can not in turn be accused of being a corrupter of the land? And then does not the Quran provide legal justification for a conservative Islamic country or an Islamic lawgiver to call for your death?

And finally Islam means submission, not peace.

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The word "corruption of the land" (fasad) means any act whatsoever that goes against the proper reading and application of the word of Allah in Quran. Thus it can mean unlawful killing and other acts prescribed by the Quran as well as to false beliefs, skepticism about the word, attempts to reinterpret the doctrine etc. All your quotes in the link are completely in synchrony with such a meaning of corruption.

Further, because of its wide application, the word's meaning in a particular instance has to be read from the context of the sentence (and commentaries when necessary).

So for example here:- (Cow chapter)

8 Some people say, ‘We believe in God and the Last Day,’ when
really they do not believe. 9 They seek to deceive God and the
believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize
it. 10 There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added
more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
11 When it is said to them, ‘Do not cause corruption in the land,’ they

say, ‘We are only putting things right,’ 12but really they are causing
corruption, though they do not realize it. 13 When it is said to them,
‘Believe, as the others believe,’ they say, ‘Should we believe as the
fools do?’ but they are the fools, though they do not know it. 14When
they meet the believers, they say, ‘We believe,’ but when they are
alone with their evil ones, they say, ‘We’re really with you; we were
only mocking.’ 15 God is mocking them, and allowing them more
slack to wander blindly in their insolence. 16 They have bought error

in exchange for guidance, so their trade reaps no profit, and they are
not rightly guided.


A reading of the verses show that a very plausible interpretation is that here the term "corruption of the land" refers to actions of people who through self-deception and for reverence to authorities other than God (the evil ones) seek to change how the faith is believed by most pious Muslims, calling their ways foolish and seeking to "improve" them and hence causing corruption of the land. Hence this verse can be so easily be used to indict all attempts to reform Islam.

Now the way is clear for every sect of Islam to call other groups the real corrupters and hence as you yourself have so helpfully pointed out Quran says:-

5:32 On account of [his deed], We decreed to the Children
of Israel that if anyone kills a person– unless in retribution for
murder or spreading corruption in the land
– it is as if he kills all
mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all
mankind.

Thus giving sects of Islam divine justification to kill each other by accusing other sects for corruption of the land.


See the problem? It is the Quran itself that is legitimizing the sectarian strife within Islam.

And when you are saying that a very traditional Hadith believed by a billion Muslims and for over a thousand years, is mistaken, are you not ceasing to believe as others do and hence you can not in turn be accused of being a corrupter of the land? And then does not the Quran provide legal justification for a conservative Islamic country or an Islamic lawgiver to call for your death?

And finally Islam means submission, not peace.

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection

Absolutely wrong.

I have given the Quranic explanation of not just the word fasad, but awfasadhin fil ardha. If you dont wanna take it but worship one verse type of interpretation thats upto you.

When the Quran explicitly explains the corruptors of the land as those who kill in the name of god as one explanation and you are just making a speculation based on speculation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From the Wikipedia entry for the Barbary war.....
First Barbary War - Wikipedia
.....we find......
In March 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[23]

So as we can readily see, the Koran poses a risk to non-Muslims.
Of course, many Muslims don't interpret it this way.
But the risk posed by Islam remains.

Interesting....
Before we had a "war on Islam", one could say Islam had
declared war on the USA (& others) a couple centuries earlier.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Mate. That is probably the summary of ignorance. Apologies for saying this, but you are absolutely wrong.

Since you claim that my post is ignorant, I'm going to assume you are fluent enough in Arabic to know a fair bit about its grammatical rules. So, with that in mind, please break down the two words Islam and salaam in terms of their root verbs and tell me the difference between their respective root verbs as far as said verbs' own roots go in meezan al-af'al ("balance of verbs").

In the meantime, I'll add this link here--from an Islamic website:

From the link said:
If you refer to Arabic language dictionaries you will find out that the meaning of the word Islam is: submission, humbling oneself, and obeying commands and heeding prohibitions without objection, sincerely worshipping Allaah alone, believing what He tells us and having faith in Him. The word Islam has become the name of the religion which was brought by Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Source: Meaning of the word Islam - islamqa.info
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Since you claim that my post is ignorant, I'm going to assume you are fluent enough in Arabic to know a fair bit about its grammatical rules. So, with that in mind, please break down the two words Islam and salaam in terms of their root verbs and tell me the difference between their respective root verbs as far as said verbs' own roots go in meezan al-af'al ("balance of verbs").

In the meantime, I'll add this link here--from an Islamic website:



Source: Meaning of the word Islam - islamqa.info
You seem to be confused. Your link does indeed say Islam means submission and not peace.

If you refer to Arabic language dictionaries you will find out that the meaning of the word Islam is: submission, humbling oneself, and obeying commands and heeding prohibitions without objection, sincerely worshipping Allaah alone, believing what He tells us and having faith in Him.

Where in your link does it say Islam means peace?
Also I linked the thread where the analysis of actual Arabic was indeed made.

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection

Unless you can refute this, his excellent analysis remains unchallenged that Islam means submission and does not mean peace.
And having the same root does not make word synonymous. For example the English root "bio" means life, but biography is not synonymous with biology.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
You seem to be confused. Your link does indeed say Islam means submission and not peace.

If you refer to Arabic language dictionaries you will find out that the meaning of the word Islam is: submission, humbling oneself, and obeying commands and heeding prohibitions without objection, sincerely worshipping Allaah alone, believing what He tells us and having faith in Him.

Where in your link does it say Islam means peace?
Also I linked the thread where the analysis of actual Arabic was indeed made.

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection

Unless you can refute this, his excellent analysis remains unchallenged that Islam means submission and does not mean peace.
And having the same root does not make word synonymous. For example the English root "bio" means life, but biography is not synonymous with biology.

I posted the Islamic link to show that "Islam" does indeed mean "submission," which is what I said in my analysis in the thread you mentioned.

Did you mean to quote another poster?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Show him to be wrong. Everyone can say absolutely wrong without much effort.

Alright mate, I'll accept that.

The word Salam or Salima should be checked up if you like in ed lanes lexicon. The explanation spans 4 or 5 pages if I remember right.

It is instantaneous, immediate and vivid, the fact that it is absobloodylutely wrong to say that Islam means submission and not peace.

This is just about a word and its meaning.

If I say in transliteration Sallam annahu kadha it means "Sure I agree or concede" which is submission. If I say Silamun or Musaalimaathu it means "a person made peace".

You know something. Explaining this is embarrassing but I should not think that way because you may not know Arabic. Dont take my word. Look up any lexicon.

S.L.M could mean peace or an act of submission. It is based on the usage the meaning changes.

Peace ;)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The claim that sayak's statement that Islam means 'submission', not 'peace' - and by implication that DS's post (which sayak is basing his statement on) is similarly wrong.

Sure. I agree.

See if someone tells you run could only mean the physical act of running on the road...

Nevertheless I hope my answer above suffices.
 
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